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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Ceramic cup - what no. to use
- - By toddler (**) Date 12-18-2007 06:14
This had been a puzzle to me for quite a time now and nobody has given me a clear answer. I am referring to GTAW process and selecting the proper size of ceramic cup. I've asked veteran welders, foremen and supervisor on which no. to use on which conditions. The answer varies and I coud'nt get a clear rule or rule-of-thumb for which to base my purchases and inventory. At the moment, my perception is that the choice depends on personal preference. Perhaps there is a theoretical basis that I can adopt base perhaps on sound judgement considering whether it is a groove or fillet joint and if it is a groove joint, maybe the selection would be based on the pipe or plate thickness (which determine groove angle or root access?). If so, how does it affect the selection of cup size? They say a different size is use on the root, on fill passes, and on capping. Do they really have to change cup everytime? any help on this?
Parent - By mgrisham (*) Date 12-18-2007 06:55
Hey Toddler,

    I had never welded using GTAW process until this morning. But I read a lot, and I watched a fellow studen for a few minutes at weld school back in July. Anyway, I spent the weekend reading over the GTAW weld process, and what I read said to change cup size for each pass, as well as the length of tungsten. This morning, I tested on schedule 40 2" carbon pipe in and stainless in 6G position, and I asked the same question to a Journeyman Pipewelder who was testing next to me, and he said "NO," you don't have to change cup sizes for each pass. It's only a suggestion, and may or may not help, just depends on the welders ability to keep a steady hand, is what I got out of it.   
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 12-18-2007 07:13 Edited 12-18-2007 07:16
Hello toddler, I would say that you are somewhat right when you say that many people will have many opinions on why they use a specific size cup, for any number of different reasons. I believe that some of that stems from the different users of the GTAW process. Different materials will require different levels of gaseous protection as they are welded, titanium is completely unforgiving when it isn't shielded properly, various stainlesses and other types of alloys which might be classified as "exotics" could be considered under a similar type of classification. In other senses, cup size can be tied to access issues relative to joint type and configuration. Many folks like to use gas lenses, certainly a personal preference of mine. Besides just the cup size and type issue, you should give consideration to the gas type(argon, helium, argon/helium mix), and flow rates(helium requires the highest flow rate and the argon/helium mixes will require slightly less and the argon will require the least of the three combinations). Cup sizes and flow rates will affect gas velocity at the opening of the cup and can affect turbulence issues or lack of shielding gas also.
     You mentioned the changing of cup sizes when welding pipe and whether it is necessary. My opinion and this could be disputed by others, is that it is necessary as it is interpreted by certain folks who do complete GTAW on certain types and sizes of pipe. Changing the cup size as the weld progression extends from the root to the cap has to do with the travel of the cup as it is walked(rolled, turned, and rolled back) across the face of the weld while it is deep in the groove and as it extends out and the surface that the cup is walked on increases in width. By changing cup sizes as this process progresses it allows the operator to basically use the same hand and wrist action and not have to make significant changes in this motion. If you try to cap with the same cup that you put the root in with on a large heavy wall pipe, you would have to use significant roll of the wrist and might not be able to move far enough to cover the face of the cap. Also, if you were to try to make the root(in say a deep groove on thick wall pipe) with a large cup you would have a hard time getting consistency the way that would be possible with the much smaller cup. I am sure that there are many who have personal preferences on how they attack these different situations and that's why you will likely have so many different opinions. I believe you need to consider the specific types of welding that you will be covering and then try to narrow it down from there. If you are trying to provide for other welders in your facility you may need to consider their preferences as well as basing your choices and theirs on meeting the aesthetics and performance criteria of the affected welds. My $.02 and hopefully not adding to your confusion. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-18-2007 10:12
nice reply there Allen.

Toddler some of the sickest tig welders in the free world frequent this forum so I am sure you will get some solid advice.  I have some general rules of thumb that I have come to use over the years in regards to tungsten size and cup size.   

Tungsten first (but the rules seem to go hand in hand with cups).

1.  If its DCEN and your tungsten is degrading go to the next larger size until it does not degrade and it will stay sharp.

2. If its A/C and you cannot keep a decent ball on the end go to the next larger size until it does stay together.  Also as an aside Ceriuated and Zirconated tungstens seem to do much better with this.  If you see a dip or pit in the end of your tungsten its not proper and you will get arc walking......I have sharpened very thick tungstens just to form a small ball on the end so they would absorb the heat.   Balling your tungsten is simple...set to DCEP and step on the pedal whilst watching the tungsten ...it will melt and ball up or round on the end.  You want it to be even and uniform and no more than ten percent larger then your tungsten diameter.....this will give you good arc characteristics and control in A/C welding.

3. If for some reason you must run DCEP I hope you have a modern powersupply and definitely get the high end tungstens.  Others can chime in here as this is very limited in my experience.

Cups

The whole purpose of the different cup sizes is 1. to provide proper coverage in relation to heat input vs. material size.  2. to allow access to the joint.

Basics

1.  If your ceramic cup is glowing like a hot ember (more then just the very edge of the cup)  your cup is toooooo small.  Super heating your gas is not a good thing.

2.  If the ionized gas you can see thru your lens (red ring on surface of metal) is not covering the metal you see glowing your cup is too small.

3.  Ideally the puddle should grow dark before it exits the envelope of ionizing gas you see as your welding.

4.  The bigger the cup the more CFM needed in flow.  The smaller the cup is the inverse ....Less CFM.   Often people use too much flow with smaller cups #8 #6 and actually introduce enough turbulence around the weld area to introduce oxygen.  10-20 CFM is more then adequate when using the smaller cups.

Advanced

1.  If you have a stickout (tungsten beyond cup) of more then 3/8 of an inch  your cup is probably too large.   Think fillets and groove welds here.

2.  If you are getting lots of arc strikes to the sides of your weld on aluminum or magniseum then you are probably running too large a cup.

3.  On aluminum you can run a lot smaller cup then you think you need too .....your puddle freezes very fast in comparison to steels. Run the next size smaller cup on Aluminum as you would on steel and keep the flow rate on the upper end for that size.

4. If you are walking the cup through a joint use the cup that makes it most comfortable and adjust gas flow to suit. 

5.  If you are stuck having to push your arc to get the bead in there adjust up to a larger cup to make sure you get proper coverage. or consider a trailer on your torch.

6.  It all really comes down to the results you see in your welds.  If you can tell oxygen is getting to your welds before the surface solidifies then you need a bigger cup/more gas coverage/your running too hot/you need a trailer to get it done.

This is just a primer on selection....I hope it will give you something to consider that will help you find your own way in your tig work.   If in doubt ask ....there are several expert tig welders on this forum.  If you post or private message me with a list of materials you wish to cover and thicknesses I will respond with specific gas/cup/tungsten/heat range selections. To get you going....however this is just a knowledge you will aquire by doing and observing your results...travel speed and heat input have a strong effect on these variables.

Best Regards
Tommy
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-21-2007 06:27
Thanks a lot everybody!

I really appreciate your effort and the valuable information you've shared! There's too much to learn from the info and I feel like I've been fed with "...more than I can chew...." I'm really overwhelmed by the knowledge I can get from this forum. I still have a lot of questions which I believe this forum can shed light to but of course I wish also to share mine whenever I can.

Again my sincere thanks to everybody!
Parent - - By welder5354 (**) Date 12-22-2007 00:23
Toddler for a clear rule or rule-of-thumb for which to base your purchases and inventory. Broad statement.
Are you a sales person or are you a contractor hoping to have a supply on hand for your welders?
Our training center usually use #7-9 with a gas lens on carbon steel and a larger size on exotic metals.
But, then again it depends on depth of joint.
dh
Parent - - By toddler (**) Date 12-23-2007 10:50
Thanks! I am with a company engaged in construction, fabrication, and training. We use gas lens only on boiler works. We normally need to know and purchase in advance welding consumables such as tungsten. ceramic cups, torches, argon. fillermetals, etc before the project or training starts. We use cups from #5 onwards. It makes me feel a bit clumsy ordering too much or too little of each kind in the absence of a sound estimating guideline.
Parent - - By Flash Date 12-23-2007 11:29
Hi Toddler
Keep it simple
the idea of changing ceramics mid weld is not practical, by time you mess around with the shroud/cup, most other people would have the joint welded
find the one cup size that will do all and stick to it, 10mm - 12mm should do it
some people like to use smaller cups on fillets so they can see
get them to use a longer stickout, as the fillet joint will hold the gas better than a butt anyway
I have welded thin ss tube up to 80mm carbon steel plate all with the same cup size
keep in mind I do not walk the dog/cup and those who do need a specific cup size
use a 2.4mm diameter electrode for everything except real high 250amps plus or real low less than 30amps
this reduces the need for different collets etc.
If you are welding exotic material eg. titanium etc. more attention to detail would be required
Good Luck
R
Flash
www.technoweld.com.au
 
Parent - By toddler (**) Date 12-23-2007 12:07
Thanks Flash! I'll add that on my journal.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / Ceramic cup - what no. to use

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