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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / I need some advice from the pro's again.
- - By Kix (****) Date 12-19-2007 20:21
I need to qualify a procedure to D1.1 (2006) for the cab sills on our fire truck. Process is GMAW-S, Wire .035 ER80S-D2, Gas 90/10 argon/co2. These sills consist of 4'' X 3' X .31" ASTM A513 DOM rectangular tubing. On the butt welds, Full penetration is not required so I guess that throws me into a PJP category. The trick is that they are coming together at angles of 35deg and 20deg in a butt weld. So it's technically not a T, K OR Y connections it's more just a mitered piece of square tubing butted together.  Would this throw me into the T-K-Y category?  I have one more question about PJP procedure quals.  To obtain a PQR for a PJP box tube weld like what I have do I only have to cut it up and verify that the desired depth and weld size was met?  In other words, I shouldn't have to send it out to the lab for x-ray, tensiles and to have bend straps taken out?

  Thanks, Ray C.
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 12-20-2007 00:37
Ray,
Per figure 3.3 & 3.4 note j, the orientation can vary up to 45 degrees froms straight before it is not a butt joint, but would become a Tee joint.  Also, I don't think you can have a T-Y-K- joint unless you have a through (main) member and a branch member.  (figure 3.7)
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 12-21-2007 14:18 Edited 12-21-2007 14:32
I agree, but I just wanted to make sure because I saw a note somewhere that said something about keeping the tube or pipe walls parallel with the centerline of the tube/pipe so I got confused.  So in all reality I could have my welder just butt the two pieces of tube straight together in parallel with the center line and that will qualify me up to 45deg in production right? 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-20-2007 02:30
Just a quick question for you Kix, why are you using 80 ksi filler metal with a plain carbon steel base metal?

You can qualify the procedure with a standard butt joint with the required NDT, tensiles, and bends. I believe you are dealing with a tubular joint, so look at paragraph 4.5 (5) and 4.13, which gets you to table 4.3.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 12-21-2007 14:13
I haven't even begun to look at what the characteristics of this steel are so I really just through the 80S out there.  We weld the sills with ER70S-3 right now.  We use a lot of 80S around here at the moment and I figured A513 would have similar characteristics to A514. Our engineers do not even specify a depth of bevel on the print so I need to go after those guys here shortly.  I still have some work to do before I even think about striking an arc.lol
    Ok, it says you must do 3 macro's, 2 tension specimens, 2 root bends and 2 face bends. How do you qualify the PJP root bends when they are not fully penetrated?  They will bust wide open.  It looks like Table 4.3 (note C) leads me to table 4.2 then to notes a and g. Note A looks like it tells me that I need to weld one coupon for each qualified position.  So if I qualify this procedure in the 5G does that mean I need to do it 3 times?  Or am I starting to look a bit to far into this now? 

Thanks, Ray C.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-21-2007 18:53 Edited 12-21-2007 19:32
The complete joint penetration groove weld is typically used to qualify CJP and PJP groove welds as well as fillets. If you qualify a PJP (instead of using a CJP) you would have to machine the test piece down to the point where fusion exists prior to performing the bend tests. My experience has been that we typically qualify the mechanicals with a CJP sample. Then we verify the joint penetration using a grooved sample that replicates the groove details proposed by engineering by sectioning and etching the (separate) PJP groove welded sample.

OK, now you've forced me to look at the table!

Yup, use the proposed PJP detail and tested in each position. Paragraph 4.10.3 allows the situation I mention above, qualify a CJP and the perform macros on the PJP. If you don't want to do that, then read on to paragraph 4.10.4, weld the PJP, perform the required macros, then machine away the portion of the weld root that is not fused to prepare the remaining portions of the test plate for your bend and tensile tests.

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 12-21-2007 19:30
Where in the book does it tell you how to prepare PJP bend straps?  I'm thinking I will do a CJP on this box tube even if I have to weld it myself.  I don't like doing it myself because then I don't have a guy tested right off the bat.  It just worries me because none of these guys have ever done anything like what I'd be asking them to do before.  Am I correct in thinking that I would also be able to give welder qual tests in the 3F and reference this 5G box tube procedure?  Thanks again AL for all your help and have a Merry Christmas.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-22-2007 15:04
Refer to paragraph 4.10.4

Merry Christmas - Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / I need some advice from the pro's again.

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