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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Question regarding subcontractors responsibilities.
- - By Kix (****) Date 02-15-2008 16:45
We recently started subbing out some of our structural components to a sub contractor with 0 documentation for AWS D1.1.  I don't know what was stipulated in the contract, but I know our prints say that all welding must be done by AWS D1.1 certified welders.  If this is all that they have to go by, technically they could test their welders to prequalified WPS's in the positions needed right?  I mean if that's all our contract said was that all welding must be done by AWS D1.1 certified welders then they would technically be legal correct?  The part I question is if they are going to be welding our product with materials that need to be qualified by testing do they need to come up with their own WPS's and PQR's and then test their welders accordingly?
     The reason I ask this is because this sub contractor came to me asking what they need to do.  I told them they needed to come up with their own WPS's and PQR's before they start testing their welders.  D1.1 I believe stipulates that it is a sub contractor responsibility to have their own WPS's and PQR's.  If they want to be legal then they should develop procedures accordingly for our product right?

   Thanks, Ray C.
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 02-15-2008 16:53
i agree with that, it would give you a certain comfort level knowing they are competent.
Parent - - By waynekoe (**) Date 02-15-2008 17:21
Ray,
I've got to ask you if this project is being done under the IBC? If so, then a special inspection program is mandatory. I state that because I see a real problem, or, potential problem, starting to develop in some of these threads. That being said, If the contract documents state that your welders are to be certified to AWS D1.1, then that means your sub also. They need to have all their documentation available prior to the start of work,that means their weld procedures, welder certs, consumables and anything else you can think of that you want taken care of.  And, as a minimum, someone from your shop needs to physically verify that they have everything that's needed. They're your sub, and You are ultimately responsible to your client for their work. Wayne
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 02-15-2008 18:11
Does IBC stand for International Building Code?  If so the answer is no, we build fire trucks. What I meant about the whole print thing and the welders being certified to AWS D1.1 is.  If in our contract the only thing being said about welding was that the parts being welded must be done by AWS D1.1 certified welders, can they do that whole prequalified thing like I said above just to say they have certified welders welding on the parts and be legal?  I ask this because I feel the need to go to my boss and make sure we are spelling out what we really want done with our parts.  I all ready told the sub that they need to bring someone in to do all their testing and such.  The sub did not argue.  I have never been asked to go to a sub and make sure they are what they say they are.  This sub told our company that they were a D1.1 abiding shop and we took their word for it.  When they came asking if their welders need to be certified, I was like, Houston we have a problem.
Parent - By swnorris (****) Date 02-15-2008 18:54 Edited 02-15-2008 19:00
You are correct.  Your sub is bound by all D1.1 requirements, and even though you subbed out some work, their compliance to D1.1 is still your responsibility, since you signed the original contract.  Some people will say anything to get work.  Sounds like you may need to put someone in your sub's facility to make sure they follow D1.1.  You'll want to see the work in progress rather than after it's all complete.  
Parent - - By welderdude (**) Date 02-16-2008 01:38
Must be a new sub.  Or maybe they haven't done anything big or any code work.  Do my welders need to be certified?  Ha!  If I was gonna be a sub that would be the first thing I would take care of...everybody gets certified that way there aren't any hang ups!
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 02-16-2008 22:31
You guys are correct in that this sub has never done any code work before.  Thank you for clearing this up for me.  It's amazing what goes on out here in the real world with all this cutting corners to save time and money bull-crap.
Parent - - By welder5354 (**) Date 02-17-2008 05:00
Hi Kix, below is the obligations of a contractor under the CWB (w59.1) code in canada.
A lot of those codes are similar, so read between the lines as to who is responsible.

7.3 Obligations of Contractor
7.3.1
The Contractor shall be responsible for meeting all the quality control requirements of this Standard.
7.3.2
The Contractor shall comply with all requests of the Engineer to correct improper workmanship and to
remove and replace or correct all welds that do not comply with the contract drawings and specifications
or with this Standard.
7.3.3
In the event that faulty welding, or its removal for rewelding, will so damage the base metal that its retention
is not in accordance with the intent of the plans and specifications, the Contractor shall remove and replace
the damaged material or shall otherwise rectify the deficiency in a manner approved by the Engineer.
7.3.4
If nondestructive examination other than visual inspection is not specified in the original contract agreement
but is subsequently requested by the Purchaser, the Contractor shall perform any requested examination or
shall permit any examination to be performed in accordance with Clause 7.4. The Purchaser shall be
responsible for all associated costs, including handling, surface preparation, nondestructive examination,
and repair of defects other than those listed in Clauses 11.5.4.1 and 12.5.4.1, whichever is applicable, at
rates agreeable to both the Purchaser and the Contractor. However, if such examination discloses gross
nonconformance to this Standard, repair work shall be done at the Contractor's expense.

dh
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 02-18-2008 13:15
We're working off of a TACOM cage code for armored vehicles as well and they state in their code that the sub can work off of the main contractors procedures.  We're mostly D1.1 for everything we do except armor.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-18-2008 23:47
Well Kix, you started to answer my first question; what is referenced in the purchase order or contract documents provided by your customer? Next, what is stated in your QC manual or sales literature?

The contract document and/or purchase order would supercede your company's self imposed requirements (QC manual or sales literature), however, if your sales literature is more stringent or if your QC manual is more stringent than the purchase order, you can be held to the more stringent requirements.

As for any work performed by your subcontractor, you are responsible to ensure the contract requirements flow down to them as well as your shop floor, after all, most people will view your subcontractor as an extension of your shop.

Since you made mention of TACOM, trust me, there is verbiage that is ironclad in their project specifications. You are required to flow the requirements down to your subcontractor and you are responsible to ensure they are in compliance. TACOM is another entity in the military hierarchy. Their project specifications usually have clauses that reference "standard clauses" that are a part of the requirements even if they are not physically "attached". These standard clauses are usually available for review at a website listed in the P.O.

Good luck. It appears you have the right idea, just don't let management brush your concerns aside. If they do, make sure you make your concerns known in writing and keep copies of all correspondence. CYA in other words.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Question regarding subcontractors responsibilities.

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