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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / What are you charging to test welders?
- - By swsweld (****) Date 02-25-2008 21:48
I have used the search feature and not too much turned up on this subject.
If we provide all tools, equipment, materials, test supervision and CWI, what is a fair price for a standard D1.1 groove/fillet test? Also will be testing ASME IX 6G test. What if you only administer the test and all materials and equipment are by others? I have only tested our welders and new hires but a local company recently inquired if we could test their welders for a large project and I didn't want to cut anyone's throat. I am a welder/CWI so I also want to be fair to the welders that may be paying for their own test.

I am set up to do bend and macroetch test. No Xrays. Before I became a CWI I would test our guys and send the coupon off to be xrayed for $150.00 per coupon but has increased prices recently. I'm thinking that was a great price as I got the same rate as the large volume companies got. A friend of a friend kind of rate.
I often see welders giving advice on rates in the forum. Hope this is not an unethical question. I am not looking to do this full time at the moment but this would be a good opportunity to get experienced at testing and the opportunity just came up out of nowhere. Thanks for any advice on the subject.
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 02-25-2008 22:14
We supply: Booth/machine (no hourly fee)
                All consumables
                Practice material
                Test material - 1"
                AWS D1.1 3G 4G $250.00 each

Same thing for ASME Section IX  6" Schedule 80 A106 - $325.00
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 02-26-2008 02:58
Thanks fbrieden, that does seem reasonable.
Parent - - By Bill M (***) Date 02-27-2008 15:22
fbrieden's price does not seem out of line to me either, especially considering everything that is supplied.

Regarding the $150.00 per x-ray- per coupon price above.  (I am assuming a 1" plate, one 4-1/2 x 10 film per coupon.)

For two shots (3G and 4G) you pay $300 just for the x-ray work.

I know my wife thinks I am "thrifty" (well, she prefers cheap S.O.B.)....but does anyone else think that NDT cost is high?
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-27-2008 15:29
the price to perform RT is high due to the cost of the license, and the cost of replacing constantly depleting sources. Also, the price of film and chemistry to develop the film and the price to dispose of the used chemicals. this is above the normal cost of running a business
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-27-2008 17:10
Many of the places I have delt with for RT done at their vault for performance qualifications have charged from 35 to 60 a shot. This is based in the last 8 years or so.

Either    they were giving me a good deal or they didn't know how to estimate prices. At 300 a test I could save up 10 -12 tests have a crew and a truck come out and save money if they only shot 2 an hour. (Unlikely as all 12 exposures would be made in less than 4 hours and they would be on the way home)

My opinion only based on NDT contractors in our area.

Gerald
http://weldingdata.com/
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-27-2008 19:49
I am leaning towards they don't know how to properly estimate.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-27-2008 20:46
I have seen up to 30 6" spots shot in different locations in a 6 hour window, run the film, and be gone in 8 1/2. That was 3/8" to 5/8" 2205 shot to API 650.

$125.00 per 2 man crew hour. I think they estimated pretty good. I would often times throw in 4 or 5 welder quals while the production film was drying and only add about 30 minutes to the overall time waiting for the last batch of film to dry.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-27-2008 22:12
There is a min for most companies. 125 sounds about right. Most of them will have a 2 hour, or 4 hour as well. In your situation as described, the min doesn't come into the picture. The question as I read it was in relation to welder qualification in the singular. 300 is to high, but 35-60 in the singular case is to low, and therefore I stand by the statement they don't know how to estimate.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-28-2008 04:16
Should a shot for a welder qual be any different than any other shot? The 125 is for the crew . That crew shoots quite a few coupons in a few hours. Normally the rate is lower at the labs.

I recently used a pretty good size test facility in La. that did each of the welders we had for $80.00 . I used their booths and machines and their test lab shot the coupons. All for $80.00 each. Over 60 welders between plate and pipe/tube.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-28-2008 12:41
If you think it to expensive, you always have the option of shopping. However; in the area your speaking of, they are notorious for cut rate pricing, and severely underpaying the radiographer. As for "the crew" Last I checked, the two person crew was not an option given by the NRC or any agreement state. They are required by law to have two people, except in the case of a shooting vault, but even in that, it's changing. I've shot all over the U.S. from Fla. to Washinton state, to Alaska, and several points inbetween. I can promise you that rate your getting is cut throat. So as I said, better hang on to them, they are the exception, not the rule.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-28-2008 12:57
I don't think its expensive. I was just saying what I have gotten in the past . Please share some of the rates you have used and help me understand better.

1) What is a standard rate in your experience for a 2 man Crew in the field?

2) What is a good rate per hour at the Lab?

3) How long does it take to shoot a 1/2" plate to ASME Sec IX with XRay in the lab?

4) How many test plates can a two man crew shoot, process and read in an hour, two hours etc?

I have no RT experience other than dealing with them on outages and in fab shops from a customer side.

I have seen a crew setup and shoot 8-10 weld test plates in 30 minutes and then run the film. while processing other film.

6) How much would those plates cost each in your experience?

Have a good one

Gerald Austin
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 01:14 Edited 02-29-2008 01:36
(bear in mind, my comments above were in regards to shots in the singular)
Thats a lot of questions with multiple variables.

Question 1: two man crew in the field doing what? Shooting coupons, pipeline, working a nuclear outage, a turnaround, boiler tube job, platform, fabshop vessels, tanks??

Question 2: Rate at the lab doing what and with what? Heavy wall navsea links, plate coupons, pipe coupons, mil std work, aerospace work, piece work, etc, and with x ray tube or source, and if source which one, CR plates, material to be shot, thickness, film quality requirements and a host of other factors that have to be accounted for to make a realistic quote.

Question 3: I am assuming when you say x ray that it is with a tube, as with a source it's called radiography. 3ma constant current, probably somewhere in the 180 to 220kv range about 5 minutes to shoot it with class II film. (been about 4 years since I've shot with a tube, so forgive the lack of specific shot parameters) then there is the potential for shooting this with a computed radiography system, or the need for digital archiving depending on the referencing code such as Section XI which would require particular care and longer time to run the film and a higher grade of care in general.

Question 4: I am assuming since it's field work, it's a source. A lot of people have been leaning towards selenium 75 lately due to it's increased economic value derived from a longer half life and reduced source size, which allows a shorter shot distance while maintaining required geometric unsharpness. Shot time will be longer, and is dependant on plate thickness/material/referencing code required radiographic quality/archiving etc. If it is thick coupons, it will likely require iridium192, and thicker still cobalt. So again, you have to define these variables for a proper answer.

Question 6: Back in the day when I was younger and dumber, with a 100ci iridium source, shooting 1/2" D1.1 plates, I could pull about 30 plates an hour shooting multiple plates per crank, Class II film, with an additional 1/2 hour for dry and read. (3 to a rack, 10 racks, 5 racks at a time running). This was 15 years ago.
Bumping to modern day:
Hourly rate;
chemicals these days wear out in the first 200 sheets. Some people stretch that to 400 by adding solution (not a good quality practice) for those same plates the film/processing charge should be 2 per sheet, time should be 125 and hour (southeast more or less depending on area of the country your in), min 2 hours, and mileage charge. If they are charging less than that they are cheating themselves.

If the client wants a piece rate, they are cheating themselves. It's far more efficient to stack up a group and get them shot at one time if possible. If it were me, I'd charge the same rates + consumables and rig charges be it 1 plate or 50.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-29-2008 05:45
When I was speaking of Rate I meant the per hour charge. I know the amount of RT can change considerably for each type of work and therefore individual shot charges may differ greatly. I think we were looking at things from two different views.  The crews I have worked with just have an hourly rate and therefore we get welder quals done when they came in for production RT.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 14:29
"I think we were looking at things from two different views. "
I think that would be an accurate statement.
Parent - By raptor34 (**) Date 03-27-2008 04:13
I dont know were you are getting crews for a 2 hour minimum, guaranteed I would not even bother to show up if all i was guaranteed was 2 hours. The 125 sounds about, the prices here in NM range from 113 to 186 per hour, and it comes with an 8 hour minimum.  Shooting plates you can do about 30 an hour with another 20 minutes to process film after that.  If you are looking for prices by the weld they range from 35 to 100 a weld usually with a 25 to 60 weld minimum.
Parent - By thirdeye (***) Date 03-01-2008 14:48
Gerald,

I will give some answers based on what I am exposed to (pardon the pun) in the intermountain west.

1) What is a standard rate in your experience for a 2 man Crew in the field?  ($125 to $140 per hour, 8 hour minimum)

2) What is a good rate per hour at the Lab?  (same rates as above, 4 hour minimum)

3) How long does it take to shoot a 1/2" plate to ASME Sec IX with XRay in the lab?  (The shops here don't offer x-ray, but using a mid size gamma source, the exposure time should be no more than 3 or 4 minutes)

4) How many test plates can a two man crew shoot, process and read in an hour, two hours etc? (A safe guess would be allowing up to 30 minutes to set-up equipment and safety boundaries, and one hour for one development/interpretation session for of all the coupons....So, in one hour a crew can shoot at least 6 coupons, but should be able to get closer to 10.)

I have no RT experience other than dealing with them on outages and in fab shops from a customer side.

I have seen a crew setup and shoot 8-10 weld test plates in 30 minutes and then run the film. while processing other film.   (that is pretty fast)

6) How much would those plates cost each in your experience? (The going rate  per/coupon I see quoted is $75 to $85). 

~thirdeye~
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 02-28-2008 03:21
Normally I only do D1.1 plates 1/2" to 1" side bends only, the customer supplies the material - $75 an hour $75 a plate. (Witness, prep, Macros, bends & documents)
The longer the weldor takes the more I get paid. If the visual fails the customer just pays for the time. Time starts when I leave the lab one way, local.
That also means if more weldors are testing at one time the price per plate goes down quickly.
I also do custom weldor instruction 1 or more the same $75 an hour. With Lectures the price depends on what the customer needs.
For other situations the price depends on what the customer needs.

Sense you asked.
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 02-28-2008 04:34
swsweld, You asked if this was an unethical question. I can't see how it is anything less than an excellent question for this forum. We are all trying to provide the best service we can for a fair price, right? So I thank the posters for their responses because I have many of the same questions raised. I'm also trying to find information on effecient equipment procurement. Any insight on a good selection of ram and die combinations and the source?
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / What are you charging to test welders?

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