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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rememberizing WPS's
- - By strat (**) Date 02-29-2008 02:48
Should a welder have to rememberize a wps,word for word and tell you all the variables and thier ranges with out looking at the wps

If that was the case why should we put wps's out for the welders to reference

Any feedback

strat
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 02-29-2008 04:11
Memorizing a WPS would be a mistake in my opinion. The welders should be able to reference the written document. People have enough to keep up with these days without having to memorize a WPS word for word. Some people have difficulties with memorization and the written paper would work better for them. The CWI seminar instructor said that trying to memorize code books was not a good idea. You should refer to them when necessary. Same goes for WPS, PQR etc. IMO.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 05:06
I agree.

WPSs are subject to revision. Documents that are subject to revision should be reviewed each time they are used on a new job to check for any changes.

Trying to memorize such a document is an invitation to overlooking changes that may have been made since the last time it was read.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 05:21
strat, I absolutely agree with the others.  There is no way a welder (or anyone else for that matter) ought to have to memorize a WPS.  The whole intent (by Code philosophy) is for the WPS to provide direction to the welder.  The WPS should ALWAYS be available for your review, if you need to.  Most welders I have known, don't know how to read a WPS and don't choose to ask, so your request is a very refreshing change!  By all means, ask your foreman or engineer to show you where your WPS can  be referenced and, if in doubt, ask them how to read it properly.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 02-29-2008 11:36 Edited 02-29-2008 11:38
Welders don't have to memorize the WPS, they just have to follow it.  The WPS should be in a place easily accessed by the welders for quick reference.  The WPS is nothing more than a recipe for making a good weld.  It should be written in the simplest terms possible so that it's user friendly and welders aren't overwhelmed by it's contents.  If that's the case they'll most likely ignore it because it will be too hard for them to understand.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-29-2008 12:57
A wps is just like the blueprint....it is subject to revision at ANY time.....check your revision and use it for reference accordingly.   I know the prints by heart....when a revision comes up I sit down and study it CLOSELy and act accordingly.  No different with a wps or a weld spec.

Best Regards
Tommy
Parent - - By strat (**) Date 02-29-2008 13:09
I agree with you guys,the reason i posted this is because the other day a third party inspector was in our shop and asked me to see our wps's and i gladly showed them all to him.

Then he wanted to take a tour through the shop,Now i have wps's all throughout the shop for welders reference . He walked up to a welder and asked for a wps,the welder gladly pulled one and showed him.

The inspector started asking questions from the wps but would not let the welder see the wps , and  he asked about every vairible and their ranges on the wps.

I do not agree with that , he acted liked the welder was a dum;; for not knowing everything on the wps with out looking.

Thanks,strat
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 02-29-2008 13:26 Edited 02-29-2008 13:31
I personally think your third party inspector took it a step too far, but when that happens, all the welder needs to say is "I follow the WPS".  That usually works, unless the inspector starts asking trick questions to a welder that doesn't speak good english.....  What's your amp range? "I follow the WPS".....  What's your gas flow rate? "I follow the WPS".  What did they call Captain Hook before that alligator bit off his hand?.... "I follow the WPS"..... not good.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 15:29
I agree, the third party inspector was playing the part of a clod. Arrogance isn't becoming of any third party inspector. In this case, it would be reasonable to ask the welder how he knew what electrode/filler metal to use, where would he obtain information about preheating requirements, welding parameters, etc., but it is unreasonable to expect the welder or the QC inspector to know what the acceptable ranges were from memory.

Any inspector that is a CWI should have learned that memorizing a code or any working documents, i.e., drawings, NDT procedures, etc., that are subject to revision isn't a smart thing to do and to expect someone else to memorize similar documents is the height of arrogance and ignorance.

I have had auditors try to pull the same "stunt" on welders, but I was quick to step in and tell the auditor that I discourage "memorization" because it is an invitation to making mistakes. I encourage the welder to review the appropriate WPS before starting a new work order because the WPS may have been revised during the interim since he last used it. That usually is sufficient to stop the auditor from asking unreasonable questions.

It is reasonable to expect the welder to know where to find the information and the auditor may have been looking for the response, "I don't know off the top of my head, but I know I can find it in this WPS."

That doesn't sound like the case in the situation you are telling us about.

I've had auditors ask the question, "What is the acceptable amperage range for the electrode diameter you are (now) using?"

The welder should know that it is within the range listed in the WPS. In such a situation it is reasonable for the welder to simply say that he is working within the permitted range when he last checked the WPS. That is not the same as expecting the welder to recite the permitted ranges of each welding parameter listed on the WPS. However, if the question isn't related to something the welder is actually doing, such as a question about a procedure the welder isn't using at that time, it is appropriate for the welder to simply say, "I would have to look at the WPS to answer the question."

I have clients with many WPSs, in one case over 350 WPSs, and it is absolutely unreasonable to expect the welder to have each of them committed to memory.

You were dealing with an individual that had a "God complex" and it is unfortunate they get away with their actions. I encountered an Authorized Inspector once that pointed to his computer's screen saver during a conversation, it simply read: "The AI is God". My response was, "A very good reason to change to another insurance carrier". For some reason he didn't laugh, but I noticed the screen saver was changed the next day.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 18:31
Allen, They taught you that too? Aint it cool to be on the same page? The third party inspector referenced in this thread would have his hands full with me, becuase I would use his own training against him.
Parent - By cremx (*) Date 03-01-2008 14:16
I disaagree with you, most of the welders just perform their welds as they fill the settings good, memorizing the WPS is not the solution of course; the welder shall read the WPS see all data, setting and verify their variables and follow the welding sequece; If the welder do that, they can answer the TPI answers anytime, but as you said, TPI could find deviations to the WPS like polarity, amperage, travel speed, etc. How you ensure that the produced welding will have the mechanical properties demonstated by PQR?; the welder shall maintain, know and follw the essential variables period.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-29-2008 14:55
The inspector should be looking for compliance... period.

If he wants a shop tour, he should be looking at the power supplies and reading the outputs, looking at the gas supply and the filler metal and seeing if they comply with the WPS.

If the welders is using the wrong gas, or wrong amperage, wrong filler or wrong polarity... Then the inspector has a gripe..

The welders machine (while it is working) is the better way to validate if a wps is being followed... Rather than an inquisition.
Parent - By cremx (*) Date 03-01-2008 14:10
I agree with you, most of the welders just perform their welds as they fill the settings good, memorizing the WPS is not the solution; the welder shall read the WPS see all data, setting and verify their variables and follow the welding sequece; If the welder do that, they can answer the TPI answers anytime, but as you said, TPI could find deviations to the WPS like polarity, amperage, travel speed, etc
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-29-2008 18:39
That inspector was out-to-lunch in expecting the welder to have the WPS memorized. Paper was invented so we would not have to trust sometimes faulty memories.

Lord forbid that he ever teaches a class in inspecting to a welding code. 
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 20:01
Up until the point about not letting the welder read it I was with em. The idea of memorizing doesn't make any logical sense other othan that TPI trying to bust their chops for no good reason. Had it been the case of asking the welder the same questions with the WPS in the welders hands to read I could see it. They should be able to pick the wps up and read off the critical fields. key word is read. Sounds to me like this tpi is having hormonal issues.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 18:27
No, I do not believe anyone should memorize a WPS. This could lead to not following the WPS. We are all human and even people who claim to have a photograghic memory really and truly do not, they just remember more than the average person. This equates much the same as a CWI NOT memorizing a code. You always need to reference your material, not memorize it.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 18:48
I got a better word for your inspector, but I will follow Scott, Jon, and Al's more gentlemenly leads and leave it at that.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 19:18
It is very hard for me to bite my tongue as well, but sometimes it is best.
Parent - - By strat (**) Date 02-29-2008 20:30
He actualy put in his report that the welders needed more training after i saw the report,now giving i work with these welders quite often to make sure they know how to read a wps and if he had asked those quistions to the welders and they had the wps in hand,they would have answered every quistion. Those guys know that a wps may and can be revised (the welders)
I tried to be a gentlemen at the time,He is coming back in a week or so and im not sure I can be a gentelmen then.
And one other thing, he was calling a flare bevel groove weld symbol a j bevel,now that really confused the welder.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 20:36
LMAO, When he comes back ask him if he has any codes memorized. Then roll on over him from there.
Parent - By strat (**) Date 02-29-2008 20:46
Thanks guys for the input.I just felt like that was wrong.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 02-29-2008 22:04
I believe I'd have a print of a flare bevel and a j bevel side by side waiting for his return.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-01-2008 04:48
He probably memorised it wrong.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Rememberizing WPS's

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