if you like to take a hot spark shower...yes, that's a good rod for v-up and overhead! if you don't like the hot spark shower, go with 7018. or, if strength is not critical, 6013 is good too.
Hello Jeffrey, this is one of those "industry standard" type rods, it is used throughout the welding industry. It is also classified as E6010, an AWS designation. A similar rod is E6011, the main difference between these two rods is the current that they can be run on, E6010 is classified as DC only, E6011 is classified as DC reverse current or AC current capable. 5p and 5p+ are Lincoln trade names to describe their E6010 electrodes. Generally, you will not weld with the E6010 electrodes in a structural application, they are generally reserved for certain applications on some pipe and certain boiler work(probably fading fast in this application). Any structural welding done to any sort of code will require a minimum of 70,000 tensile strength and the E6010 comes in at 60,000 give or take a little. In a lot of none-code type work E6010 is used because of it's ability to cut through paint, rust, oil, and other surface conditions that other rods don't handle well. Many structural mill repairs and other field repairs are done with this rod due to it's ability to make welds without excessive cleaning and joint preparation. Let me make the statement here that there is a line between the proper procedure to accomplish this type of welding and what is actually done in the field. When the other folks talk about the sparks and the physical appearance of the weld bead from these electrodes, they aren't kidding. Compared to a lot of other rods these aren't necessarily as user friendly. Yet, this class of rod exhibits good penetration characteristics and can provide the necessary base with which to complete welding with other types of electrodes. Common in some pipe: E6010 root and hot pass, fill and cap with E7018. Many other scenarios for the use of this rod in industry, others could likely continue this list for quite some time.
Generally the methods for running this rod are somewhat to be determined by the welder as different styles dictate different methods for welding with it. The way that I run this rod don't necessarily match those of others. Key here: the end result is what should justify the method of application, so long as the finished bead exhibits the necessary qualities regarding lack of undercut, correct fill, correct bead profile, no cold-lap, good penetration, then the method used to arrive there isn't nearly so important. I can make suggestions for how I run these particular electrodes but these aren't etched in stone by any means. You would likely hear as many other methods that others use that are successful for them.
For starters, I try to use the general amperage suggestions provided by the manufacturer. I adjust these settings based upon how I analyze and perceive the resulting weld bead. With 1/8" E6010 in the flat position based upon the machines in "our" shop on 1/4'' material I run somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 to 95 amps. I tilt the electrode 5 to 10 degrees in the direction of travel, try to hold approximately 1/16" to 1/8" of arc length, maintain the rod perpendicular to the weld bead as best as possible the other direction, and then proceed to strike and hold the rod to initiate the starting of the bead. I hold this long enough for the puddle to reach the diameter which will equal the width of the bead that I am trying to lay down(when I start the bead I pull a slightly longer arc to avoid a humped up cold start, by long arcing you will preheat the starting point but won't necessarily apply much weld metal to the plate, once the preheat has taken place return the rod to the regular arc length and pause and proceed from there). The longer you pause the wider the bead will generally be, shorter hold time will yield a narrower bead. In this instance I would probably shoot for a 5/16" to 3/8" weld bead width. After pausing long enough to achieve the correct diameter I will whip the rod out of the puddle in line with the joint or line that I am following, somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/8" to 3/16", if I whip 1/8" I'll come back 1/16", if I whip 3/16" I'll come back 1/8", the idea here is to end up with a bead which has roughly 1/16" spacing between the ripples of the finished bead. In industry this if often referred to as "stacking dimes", in other words if you took a roll of dimes and tipped them over the resulting scenario would somewhat resemble the finished bead done with E6010. I actually try to use this same type of motion for all of the different positions(flat, horizontal, vertical, overhead). I do make some slight adjustments to amperages and when I am running vertical I also sometimes include a J-hooking type motion, either from the same side or alternating. I would guess there will be many others who will give you their versions and preferences of how they like to do this. It's all good as not everyone is comfortable with one particular method, so it's great to have a bunch to choose from. A little bit to chew on and an opener for others to include their take on this. Best regards, Allan
Hello Allan,
Thank You for the great description. I used the 5P today in vert down for Laps and butts. I set my amperage at 100 and held a rod angle of approx 15* up. I struck my arc and proceeded as you have just described. Not that I had any insruction on this, but just seemed to look right to me. The end result were some very nice looking welds and great penetration. I had no cold lap or under cut. I didn't actually start at 100 amp, I started at 95, then ran a stringer on a strike plate on my table. Didn't much care for what I got and adjusted 10 amps up, didn't like the way it performed so brought down to 100 amps and was very pleased with what I got. Of course I was chastised as being a cheater for using this rod. How can one cheat when running a stringer?
especially when the out come is a perfectly acceptable weld. So, I did 5 laps and 5 butts alternating between 6010 and 6011 all in vert down. I showed them to my instructor and all he could do is sit there and say, "very nice welding", and then went back to reading his newspaper.
Any way, I'm going to print off a copy of your post and place it in my three ring binder for future reference. This forum is my welding lecture time so I keep all good info. Thanks again allan.
BTW, I did notice a good deal of sparks, but didn't really know the extent of it 'till i took off my Hood and looked at the face of it. Looked like I was hit by a meteor shower. It's only sparks and i am protected and no flamable materials in close proximity.
Allan,
one more question on this subject of E6010 (5P). You mentioned it's use in Pipe welding. 6010 root and hot pass. then fill and cap with 7018. I understand
joining the pipe sections requires filling the entire gap, but what does hot pass mean in reference to the root pass? it sounds like alot of filler metal going into what I imagine to be a relatively small space. How thick are the standard walls of pipe to allow for the gap betwen the sections of pipe and the bevel on each section. This may sound pretty stupid to some readers of this, But Allan You know my situation with not getting any pipe welding instruction.
Thanks, Jeffrey
Hello again Jeffrey, I am going to speak in general terms here for just a bit. The reason being is that there are an enormous amount of different ways to set up pipe and weld it. If you go through the search portion of the forum you will likely see what I am talking about. Search 5G, 6G, 2G pipe welding, downhill pipe welding, uphill pipe welding. You will likely find a tremendous amount of information detailing the welding of these various positions and also referring to various electrodes being used for this. Pipe comes in many different wall thicknesses, sometimes referred to as schedules, the smaller the number, the thinner the wall thickness, larger number, thicker wall thickness. The scope of pipe welding is such that it is unlikely that any one individual will be proficient at all of the different pipe welding scenarios. So generally pipe welders will specialize in a particular area. I believe the same can be said for any area of welding that an individual pursues. The reason that I term it that way has to do with all of the minute details that are included when welding specific items or within specific processes or applications. A really good tube welder can probably just about make welds on tubes in his sleep, but if you put him on a pipelining crew it would likely take him a while to adjust to the different methods and requirements of that particular pipe welding application.
When I mentioned root pass, hot pass, fill passes, and cap in the earlier post, these terms are generic descriptions of specific components of an over-all pipe welding scenario. The root pass could be applied with E6010 or E6011 in some cases, GTAW(heli-arc) in others, GMAW(hardwire) in yet others, FCAW(gas-shielded or self-shielded) in still others. Some of these could be run either uphill or downhill depending upon the specific welding procedure. The hot pass is usually designed for application with the cases where E6010 or E6011 are being used for the root pass. The idea behind the hot pass is to consume any areas of cold lap that may have occurred while the root pass was being run and to also remelt and float to the top of the hot pass any slag that may have been trapped at the toes of the root pass and were not removed by chipping, grinding, or brushing. Fill passes are exactly as they describe, the beads that are applied to bring the joint out to the point where the final pass or passes are applied to complete the filling of the groove and provide a specific amount of additional reinforcement to the surface of the pipe. There are open root pipe groove welds, groove welds with backing rings to provide exactly what they say, a backing that the root pass can be applied to and at the same time allow for both sides of the pipe groove to be joined together(these rings remain inside of the pipe and in some cases are not used as they impede the flow of the materials inside of the pipe), there are also consumable rings, similar to the backing rings, yet designed to be consumed by the root pass and become a part of it at the same time that they help to support the root weld. Just to throw a little bit more in here, in some cases various types of piping require using backing gas to keep from oxidizing the internal root that is present on the I.D. of an open root pipe groove, in other instances a flux paste may be applied which can work to accomplish the same thing.
By now I'm sure that you are getting an idea of the wide reaching variety of welding that can be termed as "pipe welding". Use the search function, use Google, and Read, Read, Read. Best regards, Allan
BTW: I am still working on crafting some emails to send the way of your school.
if you ran 5P then I think you'll love 5P+! it runs a lot smoother and is less erratic. you'll get the same amount of sparks whether you go uphill or downhill. it's 5P and 5P+'s nature to make tons of sparks and globs of hot steel. but, if you do try either of those rods uphill you'll have to lower the amps to around 70-85 depending on how fast you can move.
welderdude,
Thanks for the post-up on this subject. I haven't run this rod in vert up...as yet. I only ran it vert down last evening. Found it to be pretty sparky! Also, I noticed an increase in heat radiating from my weldment once my hood was up. this is in contrast to the other rods I have used. Would you have any input as too whether this increased heat has detrimental effects to the structure of my steel. i was welding 1/8" mild steel plate?
Thank You
the only bad thing (and it's not really that bad) about running 6010 on plate is that it lays down a very thin, but wide bead. it's deceiving because it'll look as wide as a single pass of 7018, but that one pass of 6010 won't be as thick as the 7018. you can test this out yourself: get 4 plates about the same size and make a "T" joint. weld about 2 or 3 inches on one side only with 6010. then weld another T joint in the same position with 7018 and make the bead as wide as the 6010 bead turned out. then put the pieces in a vice or tack them down to a table and hit the side of the T you DIDN'T weld with a sledgehammer. the 6010 bead will break easier than the 7018. yes, the tensile strength of the 6010 is 10,000 psi less than 7018, but the real killer here is the bead thickness.
by the way, this is a good way to test your fillet welds to make sure you're getting good penetration and not trapping any slag. the weld will break at its weakest points and you can look at the break closely and see what's wrong.
weldrdude,
Thank You for your post concerning the peoperty of 6010 rod. I will perform this test during my next scheduled class. yes I see what you mean...i just went out to the garage and measured my beads from monday. using 1/8" 6010 I achieved an average width of 3/8'' to 1/4". haven't tested them as my instructor wanted them welded on both sides of the seam. i think that defeats the purpose of the test You mentioned. They are supposed to be tested in class but he would rather just do a visual of the welds while sitting at his desk.
I am sick as a dog today, but still went to class today, and started my welds in Vert-Up. I couldn't keep myself from shaking and I was drenched in a cold sweat. Probably not such a good idea to try a more difficult weld when so sick! My point is that I couldn't concentrate on my whip technique w/ a 1-2 count, as Allan had suggested, and i was using 1/8"6011 rod. I switched to a 3/32' 6011 @ 65 amps and got 3/4 of the way through a 6" T-Weld...then stuck the rod! it was looking pretty good 'till then. I packed it in at that point and came home for a flu remedy.
I don't know why...but i have my most difficulty doing T-joints in the vert position. Butts, laps and corners seem to feel very natural and i do well. any Ideas on why this could be?
Thanks, Jeffrey
the base metal on butts, laps, and corners melts easier than they do on a T. you have to travel slower on a T than the other joints because of that. watch the sides of the puddle and pause only long enough for the undercut to get filled in.
welderdude,
Thank You for the info. I only wish my instructor would share his knowledge as freely,(or at all), as the Good folks in these forums.
thanx, Jeffrey
I don't think he deserves the money you pay him.
welderdude,
No this man is not worth the money he gets paid. The College I attend has had no idea of how he is running this course. I take courses on campus for my welding diploma, but the weld lab is at a local High School. The equipment is great! The instruction is non-existant. We don't even have steel over 1/8" thick. Can't bevel that to practice open root multi-pass V-groove! all the employers I have contacted use this as the basic weld test for being employed. I was contacted twice this week by John Deere about testing for a job. I finally had to tell them I was not proficient at multi-pass welds. John Deere is depending on this course to supply them with competent welders, as their pool of welders are retiring out. I depend on this forum as my lecture source for welding. I really lean pretty hard on 'aevald" for help. If all i wanted to do was weld as a hobby...I would have saved my cash an added a AC/DC stick welder to my Mig welder and just taught myself. Any way, I will be contacted by the College's Technology studies Chairperson this next week. I have reported the lack of proper instruction to the department's education advisor.
Thanks for answering my questions.
Jeffrey
Jeffery, If John Deere is relying on this school You might mrntion to THEM that the shop experience is poor, and mention to Your school that You mentioned it to John Dere. I would use this as a last resort, however.
Dave,
Thank You for the advice on this... Allan has already helped in the matter of John Deere. He sent an Email to them on my behalf. Oh, I think things are about to get all shook-up at this school...come Monday! You see, for the other students in this course, they believe they are being instructed properly, or are too afraid of being confronted by the "instructor" to complain. I on the other hand, have been around the block a couple times, and Being a Man means standing MY ground on what I believe to be right. Allowing myself to be ripped-off in my education, does not sit well with my beliefs. I will be mentioning the John Deere email to the School's Dept. Cairperson on Monday.
I'll be around for a long time, and i certainly appreciate all the great info i receive from everyone here. One of these days, I'll be able to contribute some bits of knowledge also.
Thanks Dave
Respectfully, Jeffrey
With the 1/8" materials set up for a square groove open root with 1/8-3/32" RO. Full penetration first pass, buried arc than hot pass (flush) and cover. To simulate a vee groove open root, first set up the square groove butt joint then tack two plates to the square groove to simulate the included vee groove angle. If you need mass of material for heat sink. Tack up two plates at half the angle of the vee groove, weld up the back side of the plates. Then put the two weldments together with the end result the open root vee groove.
357max,
Very Smooth...I will be taking this approach to it at my next class! I hadn't thought of that. Since I had already approached my instructor about this ...why didn't he think of a mock-up like this to simulate a V-groove? heck he's too busy with his newspaper & surfing the net in class to actually try a little ingenuity!
Thank You Greatly!
respectfully, jeffrey
357max,
Hello again. Gotta question about the V-groove Mock-up you explained to me. Is it okay for me to use 6010 for root pass, then switch to 7018 for the rest. Or should i 6010 root, then hot pass and fill with 6011, then cap with 7018? I have to learn this and get it right.
Thank You Very Much for your help.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady
Yes it is quite common to put root in with 6010, hot, fill & cover with 7018.
357max
Thank You. now i have a good base of knowledge from which to really begin learnin to weld properly. Dipping into the vast wealth of knowledge here in the forums is the best investment in my education, besides actually attending My welding classes. Thank You!
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady
when I started welding we used 3/8" plate. the smallest plate you'll test on for a company is 3/8". 1/8" sheetmetal is just wasting your time! go in there to your meeting with this ammunition: structural certifications use 3/8", 1/2", and 1" plate. lots of companies also would love for you to have a pipe welding certification. 6" schedule 80 (about 1/2" thick) is a standard test for pipe. seeing as how you don't have ANY of that, how can they be teaching people how to weld? And I wonder how many other people were bilked out of their money!
welderdude,
Thank You for the heads up on the test requirements for plate. I had pretty much figured this would be the case. I really get so much GOOD info from You Folks. I don't understand why no one else in this course sees what's going on besides me. That's why I came to the forums...to learn what I wasn't being taught at school. I really Love welding. I was born for this...it seems natural. can't really explain it any better than that. I think You know what I'm saying. I feel ripped-off, angry and disallusioned all at the same time! the poor saps that are graduating from this course this semester really think they have been taught somehting, and fully expect to get jobs as welders after this. A year and a half of school and it's been a total waste for them. I at least have a chance to get changes made to the program before it goes way too far.
Oh, this will get you going...as the course progresses, the steel used only gets thinner. For the GTAW & Oxy-acetylene welding they use metal so thin they cut their coupons using a sheet metal Kick sheer!
I will place You post in my "to do" archive to print it off. I have saved so much correspondace this past week alone, the school is going to loose their mind just reading it all...And I WILL INSIST THEY DO! I'm going nowhere! I will get my education...I'll settle for nothing less!! Again, Thank You.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady Sr.
Allan,
Thank You again for for another Info packed post-up! I have this one printed off also, and placed in my collection of welding knowledge gleaned from the forums. I will email you about my meeting w/my Advisor. I know it takes some time and well articulated writing when helping me with my situation. I will not be able to meet with the Dept. Chairperson untill next week some time, as it's spring break here.
Thank You Allan!
Jeffrey
Do you have to "stack dimes" with this rod? School 20 years ago just made us run stringers with it.
Hello mcostello, I wouldn't say that you have to follow the suggestions here regarding stacking with this particular electrode, in the flat position you may be able to achieve a decent weld bead without doing so. I would comment that when you try to make welds in other positions that you may face some flaws that wouldn't be acceptable for finished bead profiles. My personal experiences with simply dragging this electrode yields a bead that may have excessive undercut at the toes of the weld or possibly the visible profile of the finished bead isn't an even convex shape as is preferred, IMHO. If you try to weld fillets with the drag-type method I believe you will also see some things happening that aren't acceptable for finished beads. If you really want a thrill try an uphill vertical stringer without any sort of rod manipulation, I believe it will convince you at that point that whipping or oscillation is a good thing. My $.02. Best regards, aevald
mcostello,
when i used this rod last evening, I was welding in Vert-down on Lap, and Butt joints. I held a pretty tight arc gap and conentrated on the sound made by my welding - BUT, most importantly i payed very close attention to the contour of my weld pool, and my travel speed. The result was some very eye pleasing weld beads and yes i did achieve what looked like a stack of dimes knocked on it''s side.
Just a little advice....Take heed of the answers and advice given by such contributers as "aevald" and "dave Boyer". These men know there stuff!
Good luck, Jeffrey
Jeffrey,thanks for the compliment. It isn't that I know so much, but being a self taught shade tree fabricator I am well in tune with the problems someone who doesn't weld 60 hours a week all year runs into, and can sometimes describe the situation in easier laymans terms.
My tool & die making & machine building experience, and the asociated manufacturing operations do give Me some insights that a pure welding background would not.
Hello Dave, you brought up a very important and often missed point. When you have welded day in and day out for many years everything becomes so automatic that you don't often pay attention to the small nuances that can make a difference for someone who is just starting out and trying to get it right. The things that veterans do automatically and synchronously aren't readily picked up on by those first learning. Those teaching and coaching them on have to really stop and think sometimes about how to best describe how to include multiple skills in such a manner that they can be understood by a rookie. I have heard other posters in other threads refer to telling the one learning to watch the hand, wrist, and arm motion of their instructor some of the time instead of watching the arc and weld pool(do this with your hood down so that you won't suffer the effects of arc flash, it may be somewhat difficult to see everything in specific detail, but you'll be surprised at how much you'll be able to "see"). Many times the manipulations, movements, and other rather small insignificant motions used while welding are equally as important as watching the results in the weld pool or between the rod and the puddle.
When I have students working on developing their initial skills with E6010 or E6011 electrodes I often tell them to count mentally in their heads and use this count like a musician uses a metronome to develop their rhythm for gaging and staying consistent with the whip or oscillation used with these electrodes by many folks. I generally tell them to count 1 & 2 & 1 & 2 continuously as they are progressing with their bead. When they say the number 1 is the time when they need to hold to form the puddle, the & part of the count is when they perform the whip, out of the puddle and back into the puddle fairly rapidly during the & count. 1-pause, &-whip out and back into the puddle, 2-pause, &-whip out and back into the puddle, this rhythm continues for the length of the bead. When the weld is complete assess the width of the bead, if it is too narrow, slow down the count, if it is too wide, speed up the count. This method will help some folks to develop consistency with their beads and avoid narrow and wide spots inconsistently occurring along the length of a bead. Listening to music is the key for some individuals to developing their rhythm. I do caution students about listening to music with headphones due to safety concerns. Again Dave, thanks for making the important point that is often hard to understand for some when they are trying to show others who are just starting out. Best regards, Allan
Hello Allan,
Thank You for the instruction concerning welding in Vert-Up. I went to class sick as a dog today. all shakey and in a cold sweat. I tried the 6010 and found it produced too much heat for me, and i burned through the 1/8" plate while attempting a T-joint. maybe i was too sick to even be there, But I have to give it my absolute best effort. I awitched to 1/8" 6011, But ended up with a big glob after about 1" of welding. I then swtched to a 3/32" 6011 @ 65 amps. tacked up a T-joint and got 3/4 of the way into a 6" weld and stuck the rod! I remembered your instruction about the whip w/a 1,-2, count for this weld. I was attempting this technique and getting pretty good result...then the stuck rod. I was just too shakey and sick to concentrate. I can't expect to be dead to rights in Vert-up on the first attempt! I will continue to practice Your suggested techique when spring break ends. Now i have an entire week with no access to a stick welder, and i won't go out and buy a cheap buzz box to breach the gap between class.
Thank You for the technique tip...it will go smoother( I hope) when I am not sick.
respectfully, Jeffrey
Dave,
Sorry so late in responding. I've been sick w/the flu. I read Your posts and I appretiate Your modesty about Your Knowledge. Personally, I believe it is your Multi-disciplenary experiences that make you a "well- spring" of sound knowledge, and I WILL dip into that spring for answers when i need them!
thank You for all of your Input.
Jeffrey
Thank-you for the information. More practice ahead!
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