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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / crane collapse
- - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-15-2008 22:46
From Yahoo..

NYC crane collapse:
"City Building Department records showed that on March 4, a caller told officials that the upper portions of the crane appeared to lack the proper number of safety ties attaching it to the building.

A city inspector visited the site and determined on March 6 that no violation was warranted.

Another call questioning the crane's safety was dismissed as unwarranted by another inspector in February.
"

I sure hope that inspector took pictures. Otherwise he or she is about to get hung out to dry if this was incorrect.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-17-2008 00:46 Edited 03-17-2008 13:51
AMEN to that Brother. Always CYA. I learned this even before I was AWS CWI. I was told there were three more letters AWS CWI, & CYA.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-17-2008 02:16
What Crane company owned the crane?  Who was the inspector?  What Testing Lab did the pull tests on the tie back anchors?  Was the operator licensed?  Who was the Structural Stability Engineer?
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-17-2008 06:02
I just want to say kudos to the guy who hollered....screw the inspector....apparently he was serious and he was right and he was unheard.  I have been in similar situations myself....but never with so tragic a consequences.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 03-19-2008 04:12
Everything's everything until something goes wrong and breaks and someone gets hurt or killed. It's especially true with welding, since everyone has a machine that can 'stick it together even if it doesn't look perfect'. I was accused of 'building it like a spaceship' five times today in one hour.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-19-2008 10:36
You guys are failing to realize that the crane accident occured when they were jumping the crane up to the next level.  The paper said that the temporary brace holding up one leg was accidently hit with a piece of falling steel, and that damaged/ knocked out the support, resulting in the crane collapsing.
Either way, what a shame, all that damage and death.  You sometimes wonder what would happen if one should fall, but to see it the results from one falling is very scary.  Chris
Parent - - By Bob Garner (***) Date 03-19-2008 16:15
I keep a bunch of structure failure photos from the Engineering News Record Magazine in a binder.  Whenever someone accuses me of overbuilding, I show them my little photo binder.  The first photo shows a child's toy alongside a tiny shoe under a collapsed roof.  Seems to work.

Bob G.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-20-2008 13:57
Bob,
  Do you have these in an electronic form that you would be willing to send by e-mail? It would be very usefull in some of my safety training and greatly appreciated.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-20-2008 05:43
Chris, Good point. It doesn't matter how well it is tied to the building if a leg gets knocked out from under it [or just gets knocked out of collumn].
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-20-2008 23:32
Given news reports of inspectors falsifying inspection reports, and missing bolts being reported by ironworkers, I do believe that may have had something to do with it.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-21-2008 13:50 Edited 03-23-2008 16:48
I wonder if people are seeing this and now understanding why inspectors with morals, ethics and pride in what they do, that have many peoples well being hinged on the decisions they make, get a little upset when others do not follow procedures. There are lessons to be learned from this by all, myself included, even if they are learned the hard way and unfortunatly at the expense of someones lives. Sad, sad, sad.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-22-2008 17:21
This is a copy of my reply about this in AWSPARTB's post.

It's far too early to hang anyone associated with this accident. The investigations are far from over.

If a structural member or heavy component slipped from a sling or if the strap failed for some reason, the impact of that part falling several stories on an anchorage can easily be severe enough to cause the anchorage to fail.

I worked with cranes for twenty years. I've also been involved with "jumping" cranes on high rise construction. By nature, the crane is relative precarious during the jumping process and I'm sorry to say, if the crane is going to fail, that's when it will most likely happen.

Please don't believe for one minute that I'm covering any one's butt. Someone is going to have to answer for this accident. It shouldn't have happened, but at this time we don't know all the facts.

From the reports it appears that the inspector didn't perform the inspection as well (if at all) as he should have. The sad truth is that even if the inspector had the proper training and experience, it is still improbable that anything he found would foretell this accident. I agree with the statement, "it's more proof of if you pay peanuts, you get a bunch of monkeys." I believe the training and experience of the inspector will be a point of discussion in any future trial.

The sling shouldn't have parted, but do we know that it broke, was it damaged or cut by striking something during the hoisting operation, did the component slip out of the sling, or was the strap overloaded by improper use? I'm sure the story will be different when all the facts are known. Rarely do news reporters get it right. Just watch Discovery Channel or "How It's Made" to hear the improper usage of technical terminology by people unfamiliar with the industry.

Did the falling component strike the anchorage and cause it to fail? Was the anchorage sound and secure and was it properly designed to handle the expected loads? Was the anchorage redundant so that a failure of a single attachment wouldn't cause the crane to fail? Was the crane properly founded to a secure footing be it on the ground or a temporary attachment to the structure?

I'm sure there will be several cause and effects that contributed to the crane's toppling. Rarely is there a single event happening in isolation that causes such a catastrophic collapse. 

Who is to blame:
     - The ironworker that used or abused the sling?
     - The manufacturer of the sling?
     - The foreman that was rushing to beat the clock?
     - The crane operator who is responsible for the safe operation of the crane?
     - The crane manufacturer that didn't foresee all the potential problems associated with "jumping" the crane?
     - The engineer responsible for the design of the crane's attachment?
     - The inspector that is responsible to ensure the crane is installed and operated properly (what is the scope of the inspector's work?)

The beatings will commence at sunrise and continue through to sunset.

A tragic event and my sympathy to the victims, their families, and those involved that will live through endless hours of anguish over what happened and the part they played in the tragedy.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-23-2008 17:03
Al,
Well spoken as always. I believe it has been previously posted that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, no man should be hung before his trail, so to speak. I believe that my opinion, as well as anyones, is pure speculation until the results of the investigation are fully reported. I do hope that the inspector involved has full documentation to show that he did his job correctly, and that no misconduct will be exposed, on anyones part. Then through the results of the investigation, hopefully, something may be learned that can be utilized in the future to prevent this terrible accident from happening again.
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-08-2008 19:50
It sounds more and more like although the inspector screwed up, his screwup didn't lead to the accident.  So although he should be charged with whatever applies, I hope the Powers That Be don't figure they got themselves a good scapegoat, send him to jail, and consider the matter closed.

Hg
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-08-2008 19:53
Hg, I have lost track of that story. Can you post a link?

jrw
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-08-2008 20:10
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/city-inspector-is-charged-in-crane-case/?hp

With links in that article to other articles more directly related to the collapse itself.  You may or may not have to give your email address to the New York Times to read them.

Hg
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-08-2008 20:18
thanks
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-09-2008 01:30
If history and experience is any measure, they will use him for a scapegoat. Unfortunetly for him, thats the risk you take when you pencil whip. It doesn't matter what reality is to a lynchmob, only perception matters. If his pencil whipped inspection had 0% probability of predicting what happened, it won't matter when the lynchmob shows up for their pound of flesh, and that is the problem with leaving yourself exposed like that.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-09-2008 01:48
TRUE
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 04-09-2008 15:09
I don't so much care about what happens to him as I do about what might *not* happen to more deserving parties because they already found someone to blame.

Hg
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-09-2008 15:42
Im with you on that one. I truly believe in this case and any other like it that there is rarely just one person responsible.

jrw
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-26-2008 00:11
We had a crane fall on a building in Miami this afternoon. Killed two people.

Ross
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 03-26-2008 03:42
and a crane operater in miami almost electrocuted by striking high power lines in a seperate accident!
Parent - - By thewelder (***) Date 03-27-2008 01:36
You know what they said was wrong?. Here in Los Angeles don't said nothyng on the news about it.
Parent - - By Duke (***) Date 03-28-2008 02:12
i heard they were using laborers to jump the crane
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 03-28-2008 13:20 Edited 04-09-2008 15:49
You guys hear about the crane that went down yesterday in Michigan?  Luckily knowone was killed I think.  Whats going on out there, these things are dropping all over the place.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-28-2008 13:21
In New York City. Ths Ironworkers claim that part of the crane set up in conjunction with the Operating Engineers.  The Carpenters and the laborers are involved in the dunnage, site cleaning, obstruction removal and the wood railings.  The Operating Engineers and the Ironworkers are tight.  Operating Engineers claim the site work / earth work part of the footing if any was involved.  Teamsters are required for delivery to the site.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-29-2008 01:15
Hey Joe!

An old friend of mine that's been with the operating engineers since the late seventies told me that New York Crane - the company involved, have a tendency to cut corners so to speak, and he doesn't go on their jobs because of past experiences... He's got the seniority to pick and choose who he goes to work for so, it doesn't hurt him in the pocket - so to speak...

He was working one of those cranes at ground zero after 9-11-01 until most of the clean up was complete, and he's been working there on the new transportation hub as of late...

I don't claim to know what really happened or what really caused the accident, and neither does he but, he does know how New York Crane operates, and it doesn't surprise him much that the collapse happened or why it didn't happen sooner than it did. He chooses to remain anonymous.

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-29-2008 19:36
Henry

Thanks for that news.  I didn't know who was involved.  Down here in Virginia, I haven't seen anything on it.  The NYC Web Sitre will have a whole report on it after the investigation and the blame is assessed.

If a tie back was involved, I have heard that most of the crane operators cut corners.  Even some of the testing labs fudge the results of the embed pull tests when the anchorage is in the slab.

Joe Kane
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / crane collapse

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