Please explain "prepping the root pass"
TIG or stick root? Can be done if the root is tigged in (keyholed), but as far as stick I don't know how you would weld off of the start (lump) of a tack and have a clean tie-in. I have taken one no grinder test before and they still let us use a file to dress up tacks and starts as long as it wasn't on the cap.
The welder cannot use a grinder, it is a stick test, 6010 open butt and then 3/32 7018 fill and cap.
use a file or 4" grinder with a wire wheel
does that work for taking out the wagon tracks too? and what kind of test can you pass using only a file and a wire wheel? a bend test? I didn't think you could pass X-ray without grinding down the root pass to get rid of the wagon tracks.
watch a good pipe welder. It happens daily, with x-ray
I wouldn't want to be on any job that wouldn't let you use a grinder "daily". No grind weld tests are stupid. Mabe back in the day before grinders but when was the last time you've been on a job that didn't have a grinder? There's a difference between excessive grinding and good weld prep/grinding practices.
There's a line between showing off and efficiency. Eliminating a commonly used tool such as a grinder crosses that line IMHO.
so where does the bevel come from ??
what i was trying to say was that these tests are performed daily, not that it is a job requirement.
it's only for the test not for the application. some inspectors will test you like this because it's weeds out the guys who don't know how to burn out the slag. Normally they let you grind the start and stop then buff the rest.
But why? Any decent inspector ought to be able to tell right away if someone can weld or not. This kind of test just seems like pointless added aggravation. Its bad enough you have to drive 1000 miles to gamble on a job sometimes and then have to perform a test in a manner you will never have to repeat in a real world situation. A no-grinder job would be VERY dragable.
and why do you need a guy who can burn out the slag when you're not gonna have any slag to burn out because you're allowed to use a grinder for the job application? and does this mean that we should always OVER test everybody for everything? if I need a class C driver's license, do I need to take the CDL A test just to drive a car eventhough I'm never gonna drive a semi-truck in my whole life? it makes no sense.
and I can't watch a pipe welder welding to this procedure because I have never known any who have EVER tested this way. I have a good idea of how to go about welding that way, but I've always seen people grind the wagon tracks out of their root whenever the weld is gonna be X-rayed.
just ran a 12in line ran bead and hot pass and no bad welds you just weld hot and burn it out
run your root pass then turn it up about 40 more if your root is in u will not burn through try not to carry alot of metal u r just tring 2 burn the trash out
This is usually done uphill, hence no wagon tracks to worry with.
I took a 2" xxs super coupon this past december with out being able to use the grinder after tack up. Tig root and hot then 9018 all the way out. I was told that you could not use the grinder during testing but can use during production...
yeah, tig for root and hot pass I can see not using a grinder.
By 3.1 Inspector
Date 04-28-2008 07:13
Most stupid thing I have ever heard of, why the hell would somebody do a MMA test without grinding.
ROFL
I agree. I know some of the European practices do not permit grinding, but so far as I know, this prohibition is after the root. If for no other reason than feathering the stops and starts, a grinder (or a file as previously mentioned) has to be permitted. While I personally disagree with prohibiting a grinder during the remainder of the test, I know it isn't all that uncommon... but to prohibit at the root is just asking for trouble and perhaps wven worse, instilling a perceived positive for poor practice. It's no wonder you can't get anyone to pass.
You might want to speak to the Welding Engineer or Management as this is definately wrong.
By 3.1 Inspector
Date 04-28-2008 07:48
Most WPS specify grinding and cleaning between passes, cant really see why the welder cant grind.
Makes no sence to me.
There comes a point, and I will duck when saying this, that the "Inspector" needs to concentrate on inspection and management or supervision providing the product and the personnel. Not directing this comment at those seasoned inspectors but rather those with less than optimal "hands on" experience and who haven't shaken off the power trip yet.
By 3.1 Inspector
Date 04-28-2008 08:42
I wish I understood your reply ;)
My point is simply that in many instances, it seems Inspectors have been given or demanded responsibilities which, in my humble opinion, are beyond the scope of what they're actual roles SHOULD be.
In this instance, if it's an Inspector dictating these requirements I feel he or she has over-stepped their authority and this type of direction should be by craft supervision or welding engineer. This isn't to say that the craft supervisor or engineer might be "smarter" than the inspector but again, in my opinion, more fitted to direct craft than the inspector in many cases.
By 3.1 Inspector
Date 04-28-2008 09:16
I agree 100%
3.1 Inspector,
I think what Jon is meaning is there are new inspectors who will make up rules to suit when they don't really have sufficient experience to justify the rules they are making.
I feel sure dbigkahunna would agree that starting a cellulose electrode in an unground keyhole is relatively easy and will give you an acceptable tie-in but when you are running in to a tack that hasn't been ground you quite often have a lump and it is nigh on impossible to get the root blending well without some grinding.
I have absolutely no idea why someone would stipulate no grinding and cannot see any possible benefit from it.
Regards,
Shane
Yep, and it comes back to that age old saying "you build quality into a job, not inspect it in." This test, even if perhaps "possible" to pass, makes one wonder about it's feasibility? Granted, many of us hold welder's to higher standards in shop testing than in field application, but we shouldn't take away the tools that make it possible to do a good job or in this case, a good test. Okay, if a welder is obviously incapable of depositing sound weld metal without excessive grinding, make the call, but don't cut off their ability to do a good job.
Thank you from us welders to the inspectors who responded to this post.
I do agree in this day and time not allowing a grinder espically if it is allowed in the WPS is absurd. However, since the appication and location is unknown, there may be a specific reason for not allowing grinding. There may be operation issues that prevent or will not allow grinding. And it may be an application and location where a tig bead and HP cannot be used.
BABRT's
back in the day they never used a grinder on pipe up untill about 69 or so ,its coming back again cause its much faster to weld in this manner. just turn it up about 180 amps and let it dig in ,youll be ok ,works on pipeline all the time in
Texas ,3passes on 6 inch pipe no problem
api 1104 is the most lenient code on the universe, and the buy evrything
If you have any questions feel free to call me
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1
texas55,
I think you might be missing the point.
Everyone who has welded pipelines before knows that you can get away without using a grinder by cranking up the amps and "digging" the wagon tracks out on the hotpass.
What we are talking about is the root run.
As you are probably well aware when you initially shove your electrode into the prep and start running you will have a small pronounced lump. When welding on the lines you will have a small lump at the top where you start and a keyhole at the bottom where you finish. That little lump needs a quick flick with the grinder and that is really the only grinding a beadhand should be doing.
When doing a pipe test you will generally have 3 or 4 tacks dependant on size of pipe. As stated above it is no problem welding into or out of a keyhole but if you have a cold lump where you started the tack how do you get that blending without a slight feathering of the tack with a grinder.
Hope you understand what I am trying to explain,
Regards,
Shane
I understand the whole thing with using 6010 for the root and hot pass going DOWNHILL and how you can turn it way up and make it melt everything together. but are there "no-grind" UPHILL tests? that would be using 6010 for the root going uphill and then 7018 uphill.
as for downhill, you can turn the heat up so high on the hot pass that it actually re-melts the root pass and reshapes it. when i was learning downhill a guy told me not to worry about the places where i didn't get penetration for 3/16" because the hot pass will fuse it all together. sure enough, it looked like i never had a problem with fusion. that's probably what's going on here with the "no-grind" test. not only that, but they have less strict rules when x-ray testing to API 1104 compared to ASME IX. they actually allow a certain amount of incomplete fusion and slag inclusion.
If you want guaranteed IP in your root run it without grinding the start of your tack, uphill or downhill it works the same. I think 1104 is pretty lenient too.
And there is a reason behind it!
BABRT's
Back in the 70's & early 80's Brown and Root use to without a grinder, file and hand brush all you got. 6010 root & hp, 7018 fil and cap. Hard to believe someone is doing that crap agian.
Have any of you guys noticed that the original thread poster has not said anything else? I think his posting of "I can't get anyone to pass this test" might say something. So if a guy were to grab a bad rod that didn't light off nice the first try and made a few holes of porosity or had a cold lapped lump, he's screwed then huh? You'd be there forever with a file trying to get rid of porosity. Like said above, we know what the testor is looking for when giving a test like this, so why not watch the test and use your own judgement on if he grinds to much. I guess it's a lot easier to say here's you coupons, no grinding allowed, put your name on it when you're done, and ship it to the lab.
yes, no matter what anybody thinks, nobody is perfect. somewhere, sometime, something will be messed up.
I had to take a no grind test for williams, questar, and eog when I was on the mesa last summer. One inspector let you grind your tack starts on the bead, then took your grinder away. That test was three welds, a 12" standard wall, a 4" 156 wall, and a 2" sch 80. All were arkansas bell holes. The other two were standard 12" arkansas bell holes. I asked the inspectors why we testing this way rather than a 12 inch butt and branch. They all said that they were having problems with light wall pipe production welds. The guys could beat a 12 inch standard wall test but when it came to production on light pipe they were gutten them when they would grind beads. As has been said before its not hard to beat 1104 not grinding, once you get your hand in running beads there are tricks to making the tie in on the knot, and hotsplashing them itsnt hard either. This would be suicide , on stiffer codes. And yes if you test like this and you miss a tie in, leave a pin hole, knock a hole in it, or make any other mistakes you are off to the next one. Thats welding.
A good trick ifound which would help when doing a no grinding pipe test is instead of using tacks in the normal way on the pipe set you pipe ou with the correct gap prepped etc. and use some m8 nuts or any other nuts place the nut where you want the tack and tack one side to the left pipe and one side to the right, using this method you dont need to worry about burning through the tacks in the root pass as you wont have any just a clean run to weld as you can weld underneath the nut, then you can use a hammer and a chisel to remove the nut when you are finished welding
Hello andrewsullivan9, quite some time ago one of the other folks on the forum mentioned seeing a similar method used while working with some welders from Great Britain. I believe they would use pieces of 1/8" flat bar to tie across the two pieces. The thing about this practice is that it would likely need to have some form of approval to allow for the tacks/welds outside of the weld joint. Are you referring to tacking these nuts across the outside of the weld joint or slightly below the bevel face in the groove? Certainly possible, maybe not allowable. Best regards, Allan
Hi Allan im referring to tacking the nuts lengthwise across the outside of the pipe above the bevel , im from the uk myself and picked the technique up here might have been from the same guys even!! It eliminates problems when tying in tacks on the root run i find, ive also worked with pipeliners that have used the other method you were describing of using 1/8flat bar to tie across the outside of the weld joint, i think they were mainly using it to prevent distorsion due to welding
DAT is a Bozo No-No on pipeline. You see that in plants on occasion. When I see a fitter doing that I remind the welding boss Dearman solved that issue 30 years ago. There are other clamps and jigs to do the same.
On pipeline, you dont get to use these things. Either external line up or internal line up clamps. On a test, you can do your fit up on a piece of angle iron. Guys do it every day and pass their test.
BABRT's
kahunna, your codes really are strict over there,not a bad thing. here in the uk those bullets as i know them are common practice. how legal are bridge tacks,id be interested to know. would anyone trust the guy who tacked these bullets near the root. f/j
I have taken a test like that before, it sucks the qc watches the hole time. If you have a choice to your rod size put your tacks in with 3/32 that way you will not have alot of meat to try to tie into. if they will let you run your hot pass with 6010 then turn it up and poor the fire on it then after you get some meat and you clean it up burn a pass of low high realy hot and then fill her up!!!
i took a 6g 2" stainless stick no grind test 1 time. i passed
