Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding of Al-5086
- - By valoman (*) Date 04-29-2008 18:11
While trying to do some repair welding on Al-5086 of an aluminum ship, there has been a strange phenomenon. When Al was heated it changed colour like if it was saturated by fuel oil, or some type of oil. Then an oily looking spot started to appear where in some cases was as big as a 15 inch diameter circle. Any idea what this is? Could the Al be "soaked" with fuel oil, and when heated the oil appears on the surface? Any comments?
PS: The surface where the oily spot appears is the outside of the ship's hull and it was blasted before repair work starts.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 19:42
While I am by no means an expert, or even close to it, concerning AL. One thing I have learned is that it is very easy to inpregnate. Could it possibly have somthing to do with the blast media inpregnating the AL and resulting in the discoloration when heated? Just a shot in the dark, and I could very well be way off base.

John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 21:09
I do not get all oily when heated!

Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 21:44
ROFLMFAO!!!

Good catch Al !

I get all heated when I get oily though.

John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 22:05
I bet you do! If only you weren't all alone, by yourself!:P

Al
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 22:16 Edited 04-29-2008 22:18
Yeah, it's still pretty fun, even alone. :-)

Wait, do the voices in my head count?

What??

Ahhh, never mind, they said no. :-)

John
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-29-2008 22:26
BTW, it took me a minute to realize this, but I would think that you would be more defensive about the easily inpregnated statement. LOL :-)

John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-30-2008 02:26 Edited 04-30-2008 02:28
Never take your self too seriously.

How do you inpregnate metal? Does it swell after a couple of months? What are the signs of inpregnation? If two different alloys get together, can you tell which was the father?

Al
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 04-30-2008 03:25
Hey Al, ........ I hear farm code 2008 beckoning on this thread!!!! You guys are hitting the hilarious mode again. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-30-2008 13:13
valoman,
  I am sorry this thread took a wrong turn. I feel this is somewhat my fault as I should probably not have piped in on a subject that I am not really up to speed on. Also by the lack of input after my "shot in the dark" I feel that it is just that, an uneducated shot in the dark. Hopefully now that the laughs are dying down someone with more experiance with this material will pipe in and help you. Again I am sorry if I have been responsible for the lack of responses addressing your question.

Best of luck,
John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-30-2008 16:00 Edited 04-30-2008 16:04
Yes John, you are right. We didn't provide much help to this individual.

Then again, not much information was provided. Is the hull in the water? Is the location of the welding below or above the water line. Is the "heating" mentioned due to preheating the base metal? Is a torch used to preheat the metal?

A realistic answer to a problem isn't possible if the inquiry doesn't providing sufficient details for us to properly assess the situation.

I tend to make flippant comments when the question is very open ended and lacks sufficient information to even begin to assess the root cause of the problem. It's like someone asking the question, "Why did my weld crack?" without telling us any added details of the situation.

How many times have we begun to answer a question only to find out we made assumptions that were entirely incorrect?

I will conceed this inquiry deserves better. So I will say this, "Were you welding on the inside of the hull while the "wet" spot appears on the outside of the hull?" That is, does the wet spot appear on the opposite side of where the welding is performed?" Again, I can only ask more questions  before offering any useful opinion as to what is happening.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-30-2008 16:23 Edited 04-30-2008 16:32
Al,
  Very true. It is very easy to get sidetracked when questons are posted in this manner. This happens often on this forum, but I feel that most people, especially yourself, do a very good job of pointing this out and coaxing more information reguarding the question. And for the most part it helps the person in two ways, they usually get an answer, or many answers to thier question, as well as learn how to communicate thier problems better in the future.

John
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-30-2008 16:39
Good point.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By valoman (*) Date 05-02-2008 13:50
Thank you all for your replies.
Please forgive me English, since I am not an American. Here are some more details on my problem.
1) The problematic welds were while repair welding 5 different spots below the ship's waterline. Any welding done above the waterline had no oily spots around it.
2) Only in 3 spots we had oily stains. In the other 2 there was no problem at all. Those 3 spots where part of a fuel oil tank (no coating to Al) or part of engine room bilges (Al was coated). Both fuel oil tank and the bilges where chemically cleaned before repair welding started.
3) Ship was blasted, but I think that the material used to blast it had nothing to do with our problem, since some of the welded Al had no oily stains.
4) Repair welding was done both from inside and outside. When we did double side welding we did the first run from the inside. When we welded from one side (using backing strip) we only welded from the outside. In both cases we got the same oily stains while welding.
5) The stains remained even after welding. Even when just preheating in an area away from the HAZ of the weld we still got oily stains. Preheating was done from the outside, just to see how Al would react when heated.
6) The exact type of Al is "Al 5086 H-32"
7) The thickness of the hull is 10mm.
8) The ship's age is around 40 years old, so I would guess that most of her Al is close to that age.

Thank you in advance, any suggestion will be appreciated.
Some times due to the hour difference (Europe-US)  it may take a while before I reply.

Valoman.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 15:16
Dear valoman;

No apology is necessary. Your English is fine, we simply need more details to understand the nature of the problem.

You said that the surfaces were blasted prior to welding. Is it possible that the compressors, which use oil as a lubricant, introduce some oily residue and moisture into the air stream?

I know that on days where there is even low humidity it not unusual to have water mist come out of the air lines at the start of blasting operations. It is nearly impossible not to have some oil introduced into the air tank unless very high quality oil and water separators are installed in the system.

Just a thought.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By valoman (*) Date 05-02-2008 16:18
Dear Al,

I understand that in a shipyard having a compressor that has some amount of oil in the air is not uncommon.
I haven't checked ours thoroughly, but even if that is true then the whole hull of the boat should have the
same problem.
This is not the case though. As I mentioned in me previous message, some of the inserts in the repair welding
procedure (that were blasted using the same compressor) had so indication of oily stains when welded.
What I would like to know is that if someone has ever encountered a problem where oil could "pass through"
Aluminum. Even though it may sound difficult to belive, that is the only explanation I could some up with,
but I can't find anything to support it, even after extensive literature search.
I did some checking on the pitting of the Al pieces that were cut from the hull and it doesn't seem that it
is so severe.
Also some hardness testing on four different pieces indicated an average hardness value in the range of 100HV
with an average value of 90HV for AL-5086 H32. I did this just to get an indication of the strength of the material.

Regards, Valoman.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 19:21 Edited 05-03-2008 14:03
I guess I didn't make my point clear enough. The oily water mixture is at its worst when the air is first released. Once the machine has been used for a while it will clear up or at least it won't come out of the hose nozzle as a "slug" of oily water. Once the mixture has come in contact with the aluminum, it is difficult to remove without the use of a solvent like acetone.

My experience in shipyards has been that cleanliness is a word that appears in the dictionary, but is used infrequently by the workers.

I had a project involving aluminum many years ago that involved chemical cleaning using sodium hydroxide followed by a nitric acid dip followed by a clear water rinse. The material was then supposed to be air dried. The workers took that to mean blow off the excess water and dry with compressed air. The compressed air was the kiss of death. Even with the oil and water separators used in their shop air system, too much water and oil was still entrained in the compressed air. The moral of the story is do not use compressed air that may contain any oil or moisture to clean, or in your case, blast clean aluminum.

I find it difficult to believe the aluminum, unless it was severely corroded, would allow oil to pass through the wall of the oil tank. Corrosion to that extent should be obvious if both surfaces are accessible for visual examination. If you have any concerns, apply dye penetrant (red liquid penetrant) to the opposite side and see if it wicks through after a couple of hours. If the aluminum is sound, it should be impervious to the oil. Were that not the case, we would have to purchase our beer and soft drinks in bottles only. After all, the thickness of those cans is only a few thousandths inch thick and rarely have I opened an empty can. :)

Best regards - Al
Parent - By valoman (*) Date 05-03-2008 06:54
Dear Al,

first of all thanks again for taking all this time to rephrase what you said earlier. I understand exectly what you are saying and it makes perfect sense to me. Keeping in mind the way thinks work in shipyard your explanation is by far the most reasonable. Blasting of the
ship's hull was not done in one day. In this manner whenever the compressor started all the moisture and the oil contained in
the compressed air was transfered in the surface of the Al and until the air cleared up the surface of the initial contact was contaminated.
I guess I have to take a look at the compressor that was used and also try to clean the surface with solvent like acetone as you suggested.

Regards, Vasilis.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-03-2008 04:47
Valoman, is it possible that the surfaces that showed the problem had an oily residue on them before sandblasting that was driven into the surface, rather than being removed, by the blasting process? If so, heat could cause the oil to become visable on the surface again.
Parent - - By valoman (*) Date 05-03-2008 06:57
Dave,

I find it difficult to belive that the surfaces had an oily residue on the before blasted since we are talking about the ship's hull (surface under the waterline), that was painted and in the water before beig blasted. Furthermore I personally inspected the hull when the ship was dry docked and didn't observe any oil residues or oil spills on the hull.

Valoman.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-04-2008 03:54
Valoman, I guess I missed the part about this being the OUTSIDE of the hull. Contamination from the air compressor as mentioned by Al sounds like a posibility to Me as well.
Parent - By valoman (*) Date 05-04-2008 08:16
Dave,

it seems like we found the root of the problem. I will check to see if that is true
when I get back to the shipyard. Thanks,

Valoman.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding of Al-5086

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill