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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Welding Personnel(welders) and WPS's
- - By gkcwi (**) Date 05-01-2008 18:09
A question has come up that I can't seem to find a answer in D1.1. Where in the code doe's it say that a welder must know how to read either a prequalified or qualified by testing WPS?  I know they should know how to read in order to set their equipment properly, but what if someone else sets the equipment according to the WPS and the welder begins welding after that? Any thoughts would sure help.

Thanks-Greg
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-01-2008 18:43
seriously
Parent - - By gkcwi (**) Date 05-01-2008 18:53
The reason this has come is because during a audit, a welder could not answer a question on the WPS he was given to the satisfaction of the auditor. Now management is fighting the corrective action report, saying if it isn't stated in the code, why should we be sited. Of course I'm saying that it just common sense, they on the other hand are saying show us.

Greg
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 19:12
Greg,
  So what "brand" of audit is this? The first thing that comes to my mind would not be code, but rather quality manual, and governing factors set out by whoever it is that is having you audited. There my be a stipulation in one of these two areas stating that the welder will be provided with, and be able to read and correctly interpret the WPS. Or something similar to that.

If you can elaborate more on who you are bieng audited for it will help to narrow this down.

John
Parent - - By gkcwi (**) Date 05-01-2008 19:57
AISC Audit- Reference Element 18-Training, Concern that welder was not familiar with written WPS's. Portion's of the written WPS's referred to base metal table's in AWS D1.1 welding code. However welder was unfamiliar with these tables.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 20:15
Greg,
  I am not completly familiar with AISC. We are IAS certified. I do however have AISC requirements somewhere here in my office.

I am a little confused. Was the welder able to read and understand the WPS, but unfamiliar with the D1.1 tables?

Or was he unable to read and understand the WPS itself?

Also, does your quality manual address this in any way?

John
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-01-2008 20:20
Do welders know, comply with and check their
welds to the workmanship and technique
requirements of AISC & AASHTO/AWS?

Are approved written weld procedures in close
proximity to and used by the welders?

Is a check made to ensure that (approved if
required) welding procedures are distributed and
following in the shop?

Did you receive a checklist prior to your audit? Were some of the above questions on it?
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 05-02-2008 16:24
OK I'm lost but very interested, you mentiones "AASHTO/AWS". I'm familular with ANSI/AWS but not AASHTO/, in the type of industry where I earn my groceries, referencing requirement from AASHTO would be a power tool in my arenal. Currently the only AASHTO/ is the DOI recalls, I find recalls on similar product that reflect pontenial out come that the specification, procdure, or work instruction i'm defending, to use in my presentations to Management.
It's amazing hoe our employers hire because of qualification and the help pay for developing our pedigree, and then argue everything we say and try validating thier stance with some of the most lame justification.
AASHTO/AWS is a gun I want for my moron manager arsenal.

Post is here, send private response, or click on my name and send guidence to my listed E-mail.

Here on the great AWS forum we are all allies in the battle to defend welding reputation, integrity, and overall the public safety that our profession impacts.
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 05-02-2008 16:26
Sorry my spelling sucks, not a lot of time at luch break for spellchecking. :)
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 05-12-2008 18:26
D1.5 is an AASHTO/AWS document.

Hg
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 17:32
Simply add the base material ASTM spec to the WPS in question and return a copy to the AISC and this should satisfy the auditor. Listing all approved base metals listed in AWS D1.1 Table 3.1 won't cut it with those auditors anymore...same with your preheat/interpass temps....can't just spell out AWS D1.1 Table 3.2 anymore, unless you can educate your welders to read and interpret the table for the Auditor...I have taken time to do this with all of my welders, and I also quiz them just before the audit to make sure no one took a brain dump during the year....LOL
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-05-2008 16:52
I would lose the tables from the WPS and simply state which base metals can be welded. 

You could get around the issue IF you state on the drawing which WPS(s) are to be used.  That eliminates the welder needing to read the tables because some knowledgeable person has already done that for him/her.

Or you could have a system where welders take detailed direction from designated person on what to weld and how.  Trouble is - you have to demonstrate that would be effective and anyone can see the potential for trouble with that method.

The best approach is to write WPSs as instructions to the welders and leave references out. 
Also provide and document training in how to read WPSs.  That way, when a welder "freezes" up with an auditor, you can show a record that the person really was trained (though most auditors will look for another "victum" when that happens; to see what the otheres know).
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-02-2008 18:14
AWS D1.1 does not make reference to the welders ability to read or understand a WPS. Only his ability to make welds within certain requirements.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 18:28
Hi Gerald,
I think that Greg was stating that in his AISC audit the auditor wrote a "concern" in his report based on Element#18 training. With these items you have a certain amount of time allotted to document that you have addressed the concern.

edit:
Greg,
Was the item written as a "Concern" or a "Corrective Action Required"? It seems like you stated it both ways so I wasn't sure. A CAR carries a bit more weight in these audits than a Concern does.
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-02-2008 18:37
Hey John, how ya doin?

I see that now in one of his later responses. I just didn't notice where anyone indicated it was not a requirement of D1.1.

KInda goes back to

"The code is not a replacement for a quality system".

Have a good one

Gerald
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 05-02-2008 18:39
Question 1:
D1.1-3.1 ....."Welders, welding operators and tack welders that use prequalified WPSs shall be qualified in conformance with Section 4, Part C."
D1.1-5.5  "The welding Variables shall be in conformance with a written WPS........All welders, welding operators, and tack welders shall be informed in the proper use of the WPS, and the applicable WPS shall be followed during the performance of welding." Also read the commentary "It is the intent of the code that welders.......be able to properly use the WPS....."
D1.1-4.21 "The welding personnel shall follow a WPS applicable to the qualification test required. All of the essential variable limitations of 4.7 shall apply............"
Do you have someone else taking the weldor qualification tests for them also?

Question 2:
Setting up the welding machine only covers a small portion the WPS. Proper ESO and gun or electrode angles have an effect on inductance and will change the Amps/Volts and the arcs stability. Joint profiles and fit up must meet either section 3 prequalified joints or section 4 if the WPS done under a PQR. Knowing how to measure the welds size and there are other critical steps in making a proper weld including the required preheat as written on the WPS. Letting the weldors run-a-muck only creates crap.

Once the Welding has started if the Weldor does not know and understand what the WPS says he will not know when he is doing something wrong. Remember this will be the same WPS that was approved by the EOR.
When the weld fails the Engineer for the dead or injured person(s) insurance company will know just why the weld failed and who will now pay for it.

Yes I know it's hard to get good help but..............BUT PLEASE!
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-02-2008 19:38
I stand somewhat corrected on my above response. However I don't think the welder must be able to read the WPS. He must be able to USE it. If his tests passes, does that indicate he properly used it ? Is there a requirement in D1.1 that requires the welder to do anything besides pass a test that demonstrates his ability to deposit sound weld metal?

I know some welders that have NEVER seen a WPS yet have no problem with some of the most difficult welds I've seen. Ask one of those guys to explain "inductance" .

Much of the welding I have been around has been being done for 50 years. Its not rocket science.

Does the engineer have to understand the dexterity it requires to weld the back of a stiffener in a mirror. Try putting the "HOW TO" for that on a WPS.

I think when you really get down to it the WPS is a very SMALL part of what is required to make a good weld. Sure it may tell me I can run 65-95 amps on the root and have a 3/32" to 5/32" root opening with a 55 to 80 degree angle and a 0 to 3/32" land. But is it really gonna help me make the weld? I would much rather have the guy that can work within or even outside of those variables and have a good weld then one that can. A joint with 5/32" Gap, 0 land and 55 degrees included angle on the top and 3/32" Gap, 3/32" Land and 55 degrees on the bottom though it may be good on paper would be one better left to the guy with the skill than the guy with the knowledge.

Companies should train and monitor their welders to comply with their system and let them know what is expected of them.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 19:47
I hear ya loud and clear Gerald! I have dealt with these AISC auditors enough over the years to have a fairly good feeling for what they will ask. Sometimes they catch me off guard with some questions due to the wording, and I may need to think about what they are actually asking for me to answer their question properly....LOL...

ziggy are you reading this?

Like you said it goes back to training and letting the welders know what is expected of them.

I have also been in some shops that asked for my help with a particular item like welder qualification and I find myself having to write a quality manual and a few welding procedures before I'm done.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 05-02-2008 20:12
My audit is two months from today........oh boy, now I have one more thing to worry about, I'll add it to the list.     Chris
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 05-02-2008 21:25
Iv'e been thinkning about this on my drive home.  When you hire new welders/ fitters, do you cover welding related issues including WPS's in there training??
I do it at my company, I show them what a WPS is, how to use it, and where they are. Then I have then sign an "official" training sheet and date it, and this becomes the official document that shows they were initially trained, then every so often, I do ongoing training.
If you have such a system/ policy, why can't you show them that you did train your personnel and show them the document (only if you actually did) and that would prove that you did it.  Just because the individual could'nt answer the question doesn't neccessarily mean you have a company wide systemic problem, it just means that one individual couldn't properly answer the question.  Try that appraoch if you can.   Chris
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-03-2008 00:28 Edited 05-03-2008 00:31
There's a world of difference between use a WPS and read a WPS.

While it would be simply fantastic if every welder knew how to read. It isn't going to happen in today's environment. Half the welders I work with can't speak English, how do you expect them to read?

On one of my jobs I set the welding machines in the morning and I checked them after lunch. If the welder just had to turn a knob to feel useful, I gave him his check as sent him along his merry way. It is not all that unusual for the shop foreman or lead man to set the welding machines for the welders. The shop management is responsible to ensure the welders are working within the acceptable ranges of welding parameters in those instances.

I would love to see an auditor try to hold a conversation with some of the people I've worked with over the years. All they would get is a blank stare, because they wouldn't have a clue what the auditor was asking. If they did answer, I doubt the auditor would know what the reply was. Usually a nod of their head indicating they understand (which they don't) and they go back to doing what they were doing.

I was in one shop where only the shop supervisor spoke English, everyone else spoke something other than English. If I remember correctly there were five languages spoken in the shop. It was like sitting in on a UN meeting without interpreters.

Few welders in large fabrication shops are going to prep their own joints. There is usually a fitter that is doing the layout and tacking. The welder simply welds, no more, no less.

I find the most versatile welders in the smaller shops where they do have to cut and prep their own work, but these smaller shops aren't usually concerned with quality audits, AISC, or any other outside certifying bodies.

I've been in shops that say they have training programs, but they are usually "in name only". The majority of companies I've seen that have real training for their welders are those working to the NAVSEA standards where the training program has to be approved by SupShips and the welders and inspectors have to pass written examinations.

The idea that the welders actually have to understand the WPS is a relatively new concept. Many companies are still operating in the "Frederick Taylor" mode of operation where each worker performs a specific job and is simply a cog in the gear. That system will continue to exist until the workforce is educated and can work independently without supervision overseeing every move. That's a long way off considering the number of young people that can't seem to finish high school and only have a rudimentary education. The number of functionally illiterate people in our society is staggering.

Some of you folks that hire workers know what I'm talking about. Just try to read some of the job applications.

Does this qualify as a "rant"? Sorry.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 05-05-2008 10:20
When it's true, I don't consider it a rant.   Chris
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-05-2008 16:58
Hello AL, i am in a unique position that allows me great latitude. When testing a welder i not only require them to read a wps, but i will zero the machine prior to allowing them to set it at the appropriate amp/volt setting. I expect a lot from my welders, and we are very successful because of it.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-06-2008 03:10 Edited 05-06-2008 03:15
Welders are like anyone else, they perform to our expectations.

However, we have to understand their limitations, be they physical, language, the ability to read, etc. Those limitations may have to be recognized and accommodated when necessary.

Good show.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 05-08-2008 03:51
Hey John...yes I am following this thread...it is good stuff!

Maybe I can help with some clarification? gkcwi is referring to the AISC Steel Building Standard when referencing an "element"; hogan is referring to the AISC Bridge (Major or Simple) checklist questions; and mwccwi asks about "AASHTO" in hogan's post...since hogan is referring to the AISC Bridge checklist, the code normally identified in bridge fabrication contracts is the AASTHO/AWS D1.5 Bridge code.

In all honesty, the written WPS may be the least read paperwork in a shop...like the owner's manual of a car...I only look at mine when there is a problem...

Still, some would agree that the WPS affects not just the welder but also the fitter since joint configuration, including backer if any, are included in the WPS. How many fitter's work with the WPS? Balance is needed here because many shops will have their written WPS "in close proximity" to welders but the fitters will work off the shop drawings and the welders will work of the welding symbols the fitter soapstones for them on the steel.

Combine that with the new requirement in the D1.1:2006 paragraph 6.3 which places the responsibility on the "contractor's inspector" (the fabricator's inspector) to "make certain" that the welding is performed in conformance with the written WPSs.

That's all for me...ziggy!
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-12-2008 20:22
Ziggy, i believe the elements and checklist questions are part of both bridge and structural audits
Parent - By ziggy (**) Date 05-13-2008 00:12
Hogan-

That is possible if the fabricator holds both certifications, bridge and structural.

Currently the AISC quality certification audits for steel bridges and buildings are performed using two separate documents. A checklist and standard respectively.

What AISC has done with the current bridge checklists (both simple and major bridge) is to provide the corresponding "element" found in the steel building standard. These references are noted in the right hand column of the checklists. There are several advantages to doing this. One is for the fabricators that hold multiple certifications; steel building, bridge, and/or fracture critical. Some fabricators use the references to ensure that the required procedures are in place and functioning for both bridge and structural.

Other than that, bridge checklists still have five audit areas (General Management, Engineering & Drafting, Procurement, Operations, Quality Control) whereas the steel building standard has nineteen elements.

ziggy
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Welding Personnel(welders) and WPS's

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