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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / He Problems - How Can We Check?
- - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-13-2008 15:43 Edited 05-13-2008 15:52
Is there a non-complicated method or instrument that can be used to check the quality or dew point of any given bottle of gas? 

The reason for the question is because of the following:

Qualifying a new GTAW procedure IAW AWS D1.2 on 3/8 thick 6061-T6 using 4043 (3/32" diam) filler;
using CJP V-Groove with solid backer;
Ar at 20 cfh with He @ 8 cfh;
Miller synchrowave; ~225-230 amps/19-21 volts (AC).

Initially we were getting a lot of porosity scattered throughout and minute black spots peppered along the welds as well.  Dialed back on balance setting to about 6 (we started very high). This seemed to rid the black flecks but still had porosity. Tried another synchrowave machine and had similar results.

Started to suspect the gases and swapped out with a "known good" bottle of Helium and eliminated the porosity.  So when we got back into PQR mode we decided to install yet another bottle of Helium but this one was rated as "UHP 4.5"  (i.e., 99.995% pure) and we had cert papers on. BUT!!!!! the porosity returned on the root pass.

Switched back to the previous "known good" bottle which we have no certs on and no info as to what specs it meets and we are now finishing our plates with no porosity revealed via PT.  

We follow a good cleanliness regimen, so it seems all our problems can be explained by questionable helium. And this isn't the first time that gases have become suspect and we lose time and money culling our lots and also looking for new suppliers.
So i am looking for a method or instrument that can be used to check the quality of any given bottle of gas.
Any ideas?
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-13-2008 16:03
When I worked in the navy nuclear industry, we used to weld test coupons to verify the purity of the argon in our weld chambers.  I don't know if that would help your case, but that was the simplest thing for us to do.  A gas chromatograph or mass spectrometer would really set you back a piece.  Don't know how else to test gas.  I saw it done once at a Linde gas plant, but the equipment was complicated.
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 05-13-2008 16:45
Dew point will only tell you about water contamination, and I suspect that if your gases are cryo separated, even a fantastic digital psychrometer won't detect any water.
Does your gas supplier just refill tanks and turn them around.  Mine will happily do that, but when I mention working with aluminum, he's just as happy to swap me out with a tank that has been vacuum purged before filling.
A GC should sort this all out for you pretty quickly, but will be pretty spendy.
Do you have any good reason to believe that the certified helium was contaminated?
Is it possible that the "known good" helium is mixed with argon (or is just argon)?
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-13-2008 20:05
r-
I really would not expect high purity gas to be contaminated, especialy when cert papers were sent in with the bottle.  But I can't discount that either!  I am certain the "known good" is all helium, just by the way it behaves if run straight. Definitely not argon.

I don't know if the supplier is vacuum purging or not. Is the "vacuum purge" something that has to be specially requested? 
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 05-13-2008 18:58
28 CFH seems like a high flow rate for GTAW.  What size cup are you using?  Gas lens?
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-13-2008 19:56
No gas lens on this torch; cup size = 3/8" I.D..
Using a Weldcraft torch #CS310A with a 1/8" zirconiated(?) tungsten.
Ideas?
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-13-2008 21:09 Edited 05-13-2008 21:13
Hello Tom, as GRoberts said in regard to flow-rate, it does seem a tad bit high considering that you are running a fairly small I.D. cup and a fairly large tungsten, lots of restriction at the point of exit for the shielding gas. You could very well be experiencing some velocity induced turbulence or venturi effect with this combination. Are you using a fairly substantial stick-out? If so, this could further complicate proper shielding. Is there a reason why you aren't using a gas lens? Unless there are some access restrictions, I would believe you would experience far less issues with a gas lens assembly and as large of a cup as your access allows. A bit more food for thought. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-14-2008 11:29 Edited 05-14-2008 11:41
"...fairly large tungsten..."  you say!!! What would you have suggested and why would this matter in my situation? Is it just a matter of restriction? Also we had a stickout = ~3/32" on the root and less for the fill.

I would be very inclined to agree that the high flow and small cup may help explain the porosity EXCEPT we used the same setup and was eventually successful.  We used the smaller setup for better access to the root.

One fact I failed to mention was the welder on the job remarked that the high purity helium "just didn't burn as hot".  Now I suppose we could have cranked up the amperage but since we felt we should not have had to do that since we were already at 230 amps. Consequently we went back to the previous "known good".
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-14-2008 15:18
Hello again Tom, I should have paid more attention to your stated parameters, my bad, hence my comment about the tungsten diameter. I do have a few more thoughts for your consideration. When you folks set-up your testing pieces how are you preparing them? How long between the time that they are set-up and the time you are attempting to weld them? Are you using shop air at any point to do any sort of blow off or are you using any air tools that have the porting that points towards the point of contact for the tool, I ask that question due to possible oily contamination from the compressor unit or other inline items that process the shops air. Have you thoroughly cleaned the backside edge of the bevels where they contact the backing strip as well as the backing strip face, ie., acetone, etc.
     Now to the actual set-up on your torch. You may want to consider trying a few things with regard to tungsten end-prep, grind it at between 20 and 30 degrees and blunt the end off at roughly 1/16" or slightly more, if it isn't blunted off enough it will likely round off with the application of amperage. Next try using a larger cup, I believe you may be having coverage issues with regard to the puddle and the end of the rod as it is being added to the puddle and withdrawn. Try a 5/8" cup instead and set the extension to around 1/4" to 5/16". By using the larger cup with more extension you will create a larger gas shielding envelope and possibly avoid rod contamination when the rod is moved in and out of the puddle. If the operator is using a lay-wire technique, meaning that he/she is not dipping the rod in and out of the puddle, but instead is just simply feeding it in continously, you may want to avoid this as this could prevent proper cleaning action of the weld area by the arc. Also consider setting your balance control a bit further away yet from the penetration side of the control. Pay attention to the cleanliness of the filler rod as well, if necessary wipe it down with acetone prior to using and make sure that the operators are using clean gloves.
     Tom, I would like to stress here that I am not trying to be condescending in any manner. If you are already aware of all of this please forgive me for bringing it up, however if you are possibly like me I forget sometimes to take a very methodical step-by-step approach on problems and some of those missed steps come back to bite me. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-15-2008 20:30
Thanks for your ideas Al.   Believe me when I say that in PQR I am almost a*** retentive about cleaning. Funny you should mention about clean gloves because I did even insist tht my welder go to the tool room for a new pair. I discourage using shop air to blow off the welds and when I'm around they don't; most tools are rear exhaust.  Your tungsten prep ideas sound worthwhile - I'll give that a go.  We re-grind the plates freshly before we start & wire brush seconds beofre the next pass.  I have read here that aluminum oxide discs may present a problem - that is what we use and that may change next time we buy discs. 

At this point we have what we think are a good set of plates on the way to the lab for testing.  I am of the belief that the helium quality has been the problem so far. How to fix this I just don't know yet. The vacuum purge requirement must be the secret.
Thanks.   
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 05-16-2008 00:24
Hello Tom, hopefully you will meet with success this go around. Please keep us posted on what it took or the specifics, if you find anything that jumps out at you. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-14-2008 16:42 Edited 05-14-2008 18:13
Tom,

I've been watching this thread develop with interest.

If you have in house RT you could do some control checks.

I am Assuming you are mixing your own gasses with a gas mixer.

Run RT and visual on Bead on plate surfacing welds (side by side) with  your straight argon and both your "Known Good" and suspect helium. The visual alone may be enlightening!

A larger cup is ok, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with your set-up as stated... A gas lens is ok too as long as you inspect the screen constantly!

As far a flow rate goes, I don't see a big problem with what your currently using. Helium is much less dense and generally requires a much higher flow rate vs argon anyhow. With the mix ratio your using I just dont see a red flag here.

Those "black spots" really smell like a gas issue to me. But there can be other causes.  Assuming your surface prep is sound (which I do) A contaminated tungsten can cause similar problems...  Aluminum tends to "run up" the tungsten when the electrode touches the work or filler.. So if an operater stops to clean up after a dip, but neglects to remove 100% of the bad stuff that climbs up the tungsten (up to 1/2 inch in high current ops) this can be an issue.  Doubtful in your case, but still possible.

Just walk out to the shop floor when everybody is on break, remove the tungstens from the torchs and inspect it's full length... This may tell you something about what really goes on on the shop floor day in and day out.
Parent - By tom cooper (**) Date 05-15-2008 20:36
Lawrence-
Don't have RT in-house. Glad you think the basic set-up is OK.  I watched each and every pass during these tests and am confident the tungsten was not in or on the work at any time. But will take a close look at them to see what I can see.  I will take your suggestion and look at them though.  

So if a little aluminum started to creep up the tungsten, what effect would that have? how can that incurr some porosity?
Thankyou for your ideas.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / He Problems - How Can We Check?

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