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- - By mody454 (**) Date 05-13-2008 17:42
hey does anyone have experience with tiging anodized aluminum  is there any tricks? i busted a test last week cuz the anodization kept messing with me   and they didnt use a rig where you could control the heat  it was 150 all or nothing kinda a deal  and you had to have that much to get thru the anidized   any way if anyone knows about this please fill me in
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-13-2008 18:33
Hello mody454, simply put, don't try to weld on aluminum that has been anodized without first removing it in the area to be welded. Leaving a buffer strip between the weld toes and any anodized surface will be even that much better. I would tend to say that whoever was giving you this test either wasn't really up to speed on the proper welding procedure for it or they were trying to make your life hard or figure out if you knew what would be required to weld this. My $.02  Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By EMWelding (*) Date 05-13-2008 20:05
welding anodized alumunim is tricky,to get the pipe hot you need to weld constant around the pipe first, and then bump it to get the nickel affect,on till it puddels then off and on wait about 1 to 2 seconds before lighting uup again, you basically weld the pipe twice.
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 05-13-2008 20:09
this is for railings on boats and wake board towers and stuff  my prob was you have to be at 150 to even get thru the anodized and once you do its to hot for the aluminum  and there is no way to control your heat
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 05-13-2008 20:51
Hello EMWelding, I can see where you are coming from, yet I would tend to guess that you will still end up with a considerable amount of black, speckles, or discoloration in or near to the proximity of the weld. Generally when you try to simply weld over anodization you won't be able to readily distinguish the toes of the weld, you may see a considerable amount of crud in, around, and over the weld bead, and you definitely won't end up with a clean well-defined bead. I have also noted pitting along the edges of the bead much of the time. My $.02 Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-13-2008 20:07
i knew you would answer this     no this guy is self taught welder  and fully expected me to weld the anodized   it was rediculas  what would you use to remove it  a flap disk?
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-13-2008 20:54
Hello mody454, if I was doing the work, I would either use a flap disc on a 4 1/2" or 5" grinder or possibly use a flap wheel on an electric or air driven die grinder. Also be sure to use a new and dedicated, non-contaminated disc or wheel. My $.02 Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-13-2008 21:39
when you say contaminated you mean with carbon or something right   not a fresh wheel everytime  would the andized get put back on to the parent material from the flap disk   i know dumb questions   im full of them   so say i was doing a tee out of 1 1/2 pipe  i made my saddle  clean off about a 1/4 inch from the end of the pipe and about 1/4 inch where the saddle fits the other pipe  then there shouldnt be any problems  and i guess it really shouldnt matter that the anodized isnt there because you would burn it off anyways right?   this stuff is like a clear coat of anodization
Parent - By EMWelding (*) Date 05-13-2008 22:29
hello,no cleaning is required, I run about 180  amps when doing anodized with an on off button, it will seem real nasty in the first run,then bump weld the second pass, the lower the frequency the cleaner the weld, most of the t-tops,towers the weld is painted with aluminum paint, also make sure you use 5356 rod, do not take a flapper wheel to it, becuase of contanimation, while running the puddle you have to almost push the puddle back with the torch to make the nickle affect, 1/8 tungsten #7 cup.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-14-2008 00:17
mody454,
  That is it. Proper joint preparation is "Key" to any process. The way I read the codes that I have dealt with in the past and present, which are not great in # by any means, all coatings shall be removed from the weld area. The increment for removal can vary slightly from code to code and/or application.

Have you looked into the resulting fumes, and health hazards? Any time there is a "coating" involved, one must consider the fumes from said coating.

OSHA puts an increment on the removal of "coatings" as well, if memory serves me correctly. :-)

John
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-14-2008 00:51 Edited 05-14-2008 02:09
Hello mody454, for clarification of what I have included and the comments that EMWelding has included. Much of what is welded and fabricated around us falls into different categories as to whether it is controlled by codes and standards or somewhat left to a "best practices" type of approach. In this particular case I am suggesting a method which I believe will provide a good solution to your question. It is certainly not the only one that will work or to be considered the only "correct" method. After reading one of your other responses on this thread I realize that it is most likely that you are not working to a code in this instance. Since that is likely the case it amounts to ending up with welds that serve the purpose and look aesthetically pleasing enough to keep a customer happy. I would agree with EMWelding's suggestion for the 5356 filler metal, generally used for welding aluminum marine applications and also compatable with anodizing of materials to maintain color match. As far as the flap wheels or whatever type of power removal system might be employed, I only use dedicated items that haven't been used on anything else. That doesn't mean switching them for each different joint or application of different aluminum. 
     To EMWelding, haven't tried your method before, when I get an opportunity I will certainly give it a go. Even slightly older dogs can learn new tricks. 
     I have also included a wikipedia excerpt to discuss anodizing and what exactly it encompasses and how it works. Couldn't attach so I'll try this a different way, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing
Hope some of this information can be of use. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-14-2008 04:02
    I have seen a few of these marine parts, and it looks like thy didn't grind away the anodising. I have not had the oportunity to ask the guys who do it, however. On a job like this, looks are everything.

    I made some stuff for My sailboat when I didn't have a TIG setup, the results I got with aluminum MIG were not up to comercial apearance standards. On the items I made with anodised tube sometimes I ground atleast some the coating off first [otherwise the MIG arc wouldn't start reliably], and ground the welds some after. For this I used flap wheels on an angle grinder.

   The parts moody is making are welded really nicely, and no grinding before or after is evident. Amperage controll helps, but plenty of parts have been made without it. The guys doing this work are WAY better than I am, their work is downright pretty.
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 04:48
yea appereance is everything here as long as the railing doesnt fall off the upright  but i think im getting from all responses is there needs to be som prep work as in grinding off the anodized areas where you intend to weld  and from my best understanding is from ews is to lay filler around the joint for structure then go back over for appereance  with a start and stop technic  sorry guys i know my spelling sucks but ....   i greatly appreciate everyone input here   this has bothered me alot as i hate to fail  im going to go back and see if they can afford a few more pieces of scrap to waste   something i must concour for myself if nothing else    someone said no flap disc   what would you recomend instead    thanks  R.C.
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 04:48
oops EMW
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-14-2008 04:55
mody, They might grind some, but it is not beyond the area of the finished weld. Did You get to see any that the guy had done himself? I sure would be good if You could see Him weld one before You try again. I saw a guy building "T" tops at Crackerboy Boatyard in Palm Beach, Fla. but I didn't snoop around as much as I wish I had.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-14-2008 07:48
SS fine brush would be good (on a small grinder), with a good blow of compressed air and an alcohol or acetone wipe down after.   Scotchbrite roloc pads could get it off but I have heard differing opinions on contamination from this.....my last test was cleaned with the scotchbrite with no ill effects or they did not catch them take your pick.    I won't weld over anodized period ....that crap gets in your weld.....our particular spec states all scale, mill finish, oils, inks shall be removed from both sides of an Aluminum or one side of a Magnesium joint to a minimum of 6mm from the weld joint and or at least 2mm from the edge of the finished weld deposit.     I agree that some abrasive discs leave contaminants behind that can be as bad as the anodize itself....I could not give you a breakdown of which ones are good to use without reading some boxes which are at work unfortunately.      I could see someone running a cleaning pass and basically burning it up then brushing the leftovers off......but that definitely would not be my first choice.
Parent - - By Ringo (***) Date 05-14-2008 10:41
There is a company around here that welds those ski towers,and they weld anodized aluminum.They weld it real hot (about 275 amps W/ argon heilium mix),and they have all kinds of crackings problems,both in fabrication,and in service.They use a button on the tig rig,and keep bumping it as they go around the joint,welding right over the crater cracks.It's totally against eveything I have ever learned about welding.I don't see how they stay in business.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-14-2008 11:30
It may be all about the looks, but the final product still needs to be able to serve its intended purpose.
Case and point..... I was asked to repair a factory made roll bar on a Jeep. It broke for "no apparant reason", some one just hanging on for dear life, no impact. After cleaning it up, the total length of "fusion" of the "weld area", was less than 1/4"! Other wise, it was just some intermittent blobs of GMAW and then "Bondoed" and painted. It literally fell apart in someones hands!!!
Scary, what is out there in the "Real World".
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 11:49
dang  kinda pointless to have a roll bar that couldnt handel a roll  thats what i was thinking  dont they pull skiers from that tower   i mean couldnt this become a liability for this guy down the road if he is not laying sound welds   the guy has been doing this 5 yrs  he is building up a pretty good business and wants to expand  but as i have mentioned he is self taught    so no formal training has been sought out by him as far as iknow
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 11:30
hey are there any codes writin on welding on anodized aluminum  i want to make sure this guy is fully aware    cuz im not for sure he is   also any asme codes for boat railings wake towers and t tops  and where would those be found
Parent - - By awill4x4 (**) Date 05-14-2008 11:58
Here's a link to some older Miller info about the "bump" technique used by PipeWelders in Florida for the Tuna Towers they build. It's in a PDF file and the layout makes it awkward to read but the information is there if you persist.
http://archive.metalformingmagazine.com/1999/11/Miller.pdf
Regards Andrew.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-15-2008 05:03
Andrew, thanks for the link. I had heard of Pipewelders, but being a sailboat guy, wasn't really up on the tower business.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-14-2008 12:54
Perhaps the U.S. Coast Guard has codes pertaining to structural integrity of boats and any attachments? Such as hp ratings/size of boat, life jackets, # of life boats/ # of passengers (see Titanic, See Titanic sink...)
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 05-14-2008 12:58
Well, we could buy one, use it, when it breaks and someone breaks their neck and is parlyzed, then we call up the firm of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe ...sue the pants off of them....
Anyone wanna go skiing, I'll drive the boat....
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-15-2008 04:52
I doubt the coast guard has any specs, but ABS & Loyds might, they have clasification procedures for Yachts.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-14-2008 14:08
If you can clean the anodizing; the better choice imho is use a carbide burr and cut the anodize versus "smearing" the anodizing with a flap wheel or stainless steel brush. Technique (a little backwards) add the filler metal trailing the arc versus leading the arc. Torch 90 degrees to the surface and the filler metal behind the arc. "Poke" it under the anodizing.
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 05-14-2008 15:25
Hello 357max, I would agree with the use of a carbide burr, except for the fairly high possibility of grooving, divoting, or other noticeable surface conditions that could be visible if one isn't really careful about their selection of burr shape and it's application. As to contamination issues the carbide burr would be a superior choice. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By rlitman (***) Date 05-14-2008 16:08
Definitely, but the type of abrasive does control the amount of "smearing".
Inexpensive flap wheels use aluminum oxide as the abrasive, which is the same thing the anodized surface is made of.
Better "blue" flap wheels use zirconium oxide, which is a "harder" abrasive, which will cut a little better through the anodizing.
Finish the flap wheeled surface with a stainless brush, and you'll have something workable.
The carbide is certainly the best way to get down to sound metal, but a flap wheel sure is easier to control.

Personally, if we're talking about removing the anodizing from the end of tubes prior to assembly, I would do it chemically.
Just stand the prepared tubes in a plate of lye, to the depth you want to remove.  Finish with a wash, then the stainless brush, and alcohol or acetone.
Maybe an hour or so in the lye will do it, depending on the anodizing thickness.

5356 is the choice if you'll be anodizing AFTER, since 4043 gets real dark, but if you're not doing any sort of post-weld finishing, 4043 might actually look "brighter".
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-14-2008 20:46
Anodizing is a chemical means of maximizing the layer of aluminum oxide on the surface of the aluminum. In some cases, a specific color is the purpose of anodizing the aluminum. The point is that anodize is aluminum oxide that has a higher melting temperature than the base metal, i.e., 3200 to 3600 degrees vs 1220 to 1400 depending on the alloy.

Aluminum oxide not only melts at a higher temperature, it is also the same density as the base metal, so unlike oxides in carbon steel, it does not float to the surface nor does it easily break down in the arc. It is very difficult to distinguish when x-raying it.

It never ceases to amaze me when welders say that they can weld over the oxide by cranking up the heat and they assume is all is good. Until you have performed the tensile tests and the bend tests, you have no idea of what the real properties are. My experience has been that the weld lack ductility and tensile strength when the oxides are not removed prior to welding. I've had good looking welds that would fracture as if they were glass, i.e., sharp fractures after slight bending took place.

Again, I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've had very good results by simply hand wire brushing the aluminum to remove the anodized layer. A stiff bristled stainless steel brush, pushed toward the weld groove works good. Do not use a push pull technique because it tends to push some oxide into the surface of the aluminum.

Do not use a power brush. It tends to burnish the surface, thereby smearing the oxide into the soft aluminum metal.

Grinding disks, plumbers cloth, scotchbrite, etc. usually use aluminum oxide as the abrasive media. That's exactly what you are trying to remove. You tend to embed the harder abrasive particles into the softer aluminum base metal. Not a desirable outcome it you are trying to optimize the mechanical properties. When ever there is someone's life or safety involved, i.e., safety rails, ladders, etc. it is only reasonable to ensure the weld's properties are optimized. It only takes one accident to wipe out everything you have worked so hard to achieve, including your reputation.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 21:54
well guys i went back today  told them it was bugging me and if they had some more scrap if they wouldnt mind me playing with it   no stacked dimes but i wasnt burning holes thru it  none of his stuff looked like stacked dimes  i felt alot better about it  there is no running a bead with this stuff  i took the advice of just bumping or dobbing around it  he said he wanted me to come back next week and work a little more on it  so if i dont hit the road i will go back over there in my spare time  i would like to run some after cleaning it   i did nootice that because you have to aim alot more at the pipe you are joining to because the piece that has been saddled doesnt have anodize at the ends where it had been cut  so your arc wants to go to the raw aluminum innstead of to the pipe you are joining to  none the less this has been a learning experience  and i apreciate everyones input   and especially the articals that you guys found for me they were very very helpful   once again you guys have let me get some sleep instead of laying there trying to figure something out  Thanks, R.C.
Parent - - By EMWelding (*) Date 05-14-2008 23:12
me again,there are three different types of marine pipes, bright dip (looks like chrome) brushed (looks like little scratches all over)thus making it called brushed and what is called china pipe. (no good), I make t-tops,towers,rader arches,etc. all the bling bling on yacts. worked for many of these companies and have never prepped the aluminum, I have been welding 28 years,(retired navy steelworker) SEABEES. To the best of my knowledge there are no certs fo this tye of welding, currently own my own business doing this. there are no coast guard regulations on this stuff. but i can tell you this is probaly the hardest aluminum you can weld. 180-200 amps 1/8 tungsten,#7 cup, the farther away you hold the torch the wider the puddle. run your first bead slow and hot trying to get both surfaces equal. then slowly bump your puddle around the pipe keeping equal distance with each puddle. I have tested my welds with a pull test and ripped the pipe not the weld. might be luck dont know. never had a problem with welds cracking. pure argon not mix. I have seen many great welders have a hard time with this it take lots of practice. dont get discouraged.  p.s. I know my spelling sucks.                                                                                            
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-14-2008 23:46
dont worry my spelling sucks too   so are you putting filler in on that first pass   when i first got there today i tried cranking it up  to 200 like you said but it just blew thru everything and made a big hole so i put it back to 150   the hardest is getting that arc focased at the pipe  instead of the saddled piece   because there is no anodized on the end of that piece it wants to evaporate on me  i did so much better today  but im going to keep going over there in my spare time   i will get it  and i just bumped around the whole thing   getting used to pushing a button   one other thing i found was you want to see that anodize bubble up real good before you add a drop of filler each time   i forgot to look at which filler he was using   and   would tungston make any diffrence  ive always used 2% thoriated on aluminum  but ive heard you can use pure just as well   would that make any diffrence with the anodization   so you go around once to fuse then go around a gain to dress it up   p.s. i think this is brushed   the only way i could do it was start stop start stop all the way around   there was no running a bead like dip dip dip  i know im trying to come up with the best acronyms i can  lol  but hopefully you get my idea  ok well any help is greatly appreciated  R.C.
Parent - - By EMWelding (*) Date 05-15-2008 00:24
yes filler first pass, the first 1/2 will be cold but the pipe will heat up quick, then use the bump to keep it flowing good, I run about 185 amps, I have run 2% and pure found no difference, walk the torch to both metals when starting. like i said before you weld it twice, I know it dont make sense but thats the way its done.5356 rod. the anodized is hard to tell when your going to blow through, move fast and keep the puddle going. I run constant on first pass and then do the bump. It is real hard to get used too. keep trying.
I am in florida big demand for anodized welders here. best of luck.
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 05-15-2008 01:22
alright when i try to do anything other than bump around it the end of the saddled piece just disappearswhenever i get the arc close to it  i cant seem to be able to keep it going  you are saying that you turn the torch on and go running a bead like you were just running a normal bead on plate   right now that seems impossable to me lol  im doing my best to dob it in there   at 150 amps if i leave it on there for any amount that piece that is saddled disapears   someone said something about settings  like the dig or something  could that be effecting me  i just left all that the way he had it  but like i said he just dobbing around   his welds dont look like stack dimes  i dont know im going to go back next week and ball up some more tungsten and waste some more filler  if the guy has the patience for me  lol
Parent - By mody454 (**) Date 05-15-2008 01:30
when your pumping that second pass are you adding filler on it too?
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-15-2008 01:24
hey i did try putting the filler in behind the arc at the end and seemed like i was getting a little more sucsess
Parent - - By mody454 (**) Date 05-15-2008 01:32
sorry if im bugging any of you guys   these things like this that i cant get drive me nuts  so i appreciate everyones patience with me for dumb questions
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-15-2008 13:32
Just to double check; you are using AC correct? Second use a pointed tungsten preferably ceriated or lanthanated. If a ball forms at the amperage being used; increase the diameter of the tungsten. With a pointed tungsten with a flattened end there may be a radiusing of the end. This is ok, just don't get a ball the diameter of the tungsten or larger.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 05-16-2008 20:23
Why not clean the anodizing off?  Does it still retain the corrosion protection after welding?  What is the point of using AC if you are trying to leave the anodizing intact?  If it is for appearance, wouldn't you still have the etching of the toes of the weld?  I can't imagine it would be any stronger, but clearly if Pipewelders is making $100K units with a lifetime warranty, it's strong enough. 
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-17-2008 02:35
     The anodising is intact around the weld except for the etching You mention, but that isn't very wide. To grind away the anodised coating only in the weld area would be a painstaking job, and probably take 2X as long as the weld itself. A grinder track outside the immediate weld area would be an unacceptable and non repairable flaw, purely cosmetic, but the customer will not have it.

      The article mentions that the first home made towers fell apart. I can tell You from personal experience crossing the gulf stream between Florida and the Bahamas that it is rough more often than not, and in a north wind, extremely rough. The welds on the towers do need to be pretty strong, and in general, they stay together.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 05-17-2008 12:33
So why not just use DCEN and stuff the filler underneath the anodizing?
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-18-2008 03:59
Does that work? What I mean is, have You done it that way sucessfully?
Parent - By Engloid 2 Date 05-18-2008 19:33
Nice one!!  haha!!

As soon as we can figure out how to snake the arc under the anodizing, we'll give that a shot!!
Parent - - By Engloid 2 Date 05-18-2008 19:32
I work in a shop that does this stuff all day, every day.  What I'm about to tell you isn't guessing or speculation.

It is a very common practice in the marine industry to NOT remove the anodizing.  To say you can't get a good weld without removing the anodizing is like saying you can't get a good weld on carbon steel with mill scale on it.  You can, it's just not as easy to do.  Removing it will only triple your prep time.  On the other hand, the weld time isn't affected, by using the right technique.

The technique works like this:  You bump the button and the quik blast helps you get through the anodizing layer and establish a puddle.  Quickly dab in some filler, and let up off the button.  Move forward a little bit and repeat.  You adjust the heat through the duration of time you're on the button vs off of it.  This allows you to change the heat input as you work around and weld in different positions.

Yes, there are failures.  However, aluminum isn't the optimal material for this application.  Aluminum provides what the customer wants.  They want something that looks nice, is light, and is cheap.  Fact is that most boat manufacturers aren't willing to pay the money it takes to build wakeboard towers out of stainless. 

It is an industry unlike many others I have worked in.  They typically "over-design" the structure so that the weld imperfections aren't such a big deal.  It's like heavy equipment.  Much of the welding on it isn't perfect, but they put so much reinforcing on it that it holds up.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-19-2008 04:34
Engloid 2, The method You described is exactly what the link posted above describes. The company in the link is Pipewelders in Ft.Laud. Fla.
Parent - By devo (***) Date 05-19-2008 11:58
This is fascinating stuff!  In the Pipewelders article, they mentioned their AC balance was more toward the penetration side than the cleaning side.  So is the idea to have as little cleaning as possible?  Why not use a balanced AC arc or even set the machine to max. cleaning and use a big tungsten?
Parent - - By awill4x4 (**) Date 05-19-2008 12:19
Engloid, I would like to try this technique myself as we sometimes get work that is anodised and in the past we have been removing it prior to welding.
We have inverter tigs at work, would you have any suggestions regarding AC balance, AC hertz frequency, electrode type/size or any other information or techniques you may be able to share.
Regards Andrew from Oz.
Parent - - By reddoggoose (**) Date 05-19-2008 13:32
I know that the marine industry commonly welds aluminum without removing the anodize. However, has anyone performed any mechanical testing according to the AWS aluminum code? Anyone with first hand knowledge that could share? I would be particularly interested in the bend tests.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-19-2008 13:45
Red Dog,
  From what I gather, these parts are not fabricated to any code, and apparently safety is not an issue as well. I do not have my copy of the AWS Aluminum code handy, so this is pure speculation on my part, but due to the nature of aluminum and the necessity for clean joint preparation, combined with what LITTLE I know about welding in general, I would think that not removing the coating would be cause for rejection per applicable code.

Again, pure speculation at this point by me.

Although I am quite positive that someone who has a copy of the aluminum code can and will set me straight.
I am interested in what "CODE Requirements" are as opposed to "GET-ER-DONE" requirements.

John
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-19-2008 15:12
Lots of things are accomplished outside of code.

My region of the country is really beginning to go through the growing pains of having bid requirements stipulate some sort of code compliance... Good for industry, good for me!

But still, we need to respect what works, when it works...

Since JRW asks about it.
D1.2 says this:
4.11.1 Edge Condition Edge preparation shall be accomplished
by shearing, sawing, plasma arc cutting, chipping or grinding. All surfaces
to be welded shall be free from paint, grease, lubricants, moisture, and
thick aluminum oxide. >emphasis mine< Surfaces and edges to be
welded shall be smooth, uniform and free from fins, stars and cracks.
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