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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / argon purity
- - By aerowelder (*) Date 05-17-2008 11:57
Is there a device that can dry and remove moisture from argon before it enters the welding machine (TIG)?
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 05-17-2008 14:40
If you use 99.99% UHP argon you shouldn't have to.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-17-2008 16:46
Milton,

if you kindly permit, I would like to agree with you.

Best regards,
Stephan

P.S. I guess aerowelders post could originate a very very interesting thread...
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 05-17-2008 17:19
I agree Stephan.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-17-2008 22:16
Cheers Milton,

perhaps aerowelder may provide us a bit more information*.

I suppose it might have to do with some rather (moisture) sensitive base material?

Best regards,
Stephan

* Honestly I hope(!) that Lawrence is likewise already waiting for more details :-)
Parent - - By aerowelder (*) Date 05-20-2008 02:52
Stephan and Milton,
The material I am welding is 6061 T6 aluminum hogout (machined from a solid block of aluminum) pan assembly welded to a brazed heat exchanger. The welds then under go an x-ray since the welds are flight critical. I am experiencing small pockets of cluster porosity. The weld joint is prepared this way:

The surface is ground with a burr grinder to a depth of .003"-.005" to remove any oxides. The braze material is at least 1/4" away from the weld.

The heat exchanger is put in an oven with forced air at 250 degrees F for 3 hours after the pan assembly has been tacked on.

The filler metal (4043) is cleaned with scotch brite and wiped with acetone then placed in the oven with the heat exchanger.

After 3 hours the unit and wire are removed and an argon purge is placed in the pan prior to welding.

I am welding using a Miller Dynasty 350, with settings at :
EP-140 AMPS
EN-200AMPS
AC BALANCE-65%
FREQUENCY-300
# 7 GAS LENS CUP
3/32" 2% LANTHANATED TUNGSTEN
25% HELIUM 75% ARGON SET AT 30CFH
THE weld is pulsed at 350 PPS as recommended by Miller Co. to agitate the weld to bring any impurities to the surface.

After all this I am still getting porosity in a few spots, anywhere from 2-10 places that measure .030"-.050 in diameter. This exceeds the acceptance criteria for AWS D17.1. Since most of the porosity is located near the root reinforcement I am thinking that it could be caused by any moisture in the gas. We use a large manifold system that supplies 40 weld booth located throughout our facility. I hope that this helps get a better picture of what I am trying to achieve.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-20-2008 06:24 Edited 05-20-2008 11:27
As Van Morrison would say.

"Now were getting down to what is really wrong"

Two things I see right off the bat.

During the several hours in the oven, those oxides you removed have grown right back..  Surface prep for aluminum (weld rod and componant) that is as critically inspected as you describe must be cleaned immediatly before welding.

Balence control
The 65% EN balence you are set at with your inverter is equivilant to your old Synchrowave being set at 10 of 10 on the Max Pen dial.  Back off the balence another 5 or 10% and I think your porosity will be eliminated.

Your combinaiton of reduced current on the EP side of the half cycle and 65% dwell time on EN are simply not providing enough Cathodic Bombardment (cleaning action).

AC Frequencies above 220 Hz are only an annoyance, and the pulsation (what ever your high and low are set at) won't hurt, but with your current balence control settings and oxide removal practices it won't help either.

As nice and Flexable as a "True Squarewave" Asymmetric inverter power supply may be.. The fact is that 99% of X-ray quality AC GTAW welds will be made within the paramater threshold achieved by an old transformer rectifier like Synchrowave or Precision Tig and it's "traditonal squarewave" AC power delivary.

Its not a gas problem (I bet)...   All the Kings horses and all the Kings men cannot overcome basic AC arc physics and the need for good cathodic etching.

Edit:

Your garden variety transformer rectifier traditional square wave power supply will produce 68% EN when set on max penetration... Lincoln 68% EN,  Miller 68% EN,  Esab 68% EN, brand doesn't matter.  With that traditional square wave set at max pen, will you have sufficient cleaning action to make X-ray quality welds in aluminum?  Not likely in most circumstances!

So in essence you started your procedure at an AC balence setting that was not very likely to produce sufficient cleaning and then you starved it another 60 amps with your Asymmetric 140/200 amplitude setting.

Is it beginning to come clear?    It's a tough subject to get your brain around for the first time.

So why did we buy an $8,000 dollar inverter welding power supply that can go beyond that 68% EN all the way to 99%?
Good question!

The sales guy said it makes smaller fillets and stirrs the puddle... Ok, it does..  But the X-rays aren't  lying on those smaller weld profiles.

Dynasty 350 also has the unique ability to produce *Triangular* wave forms...  Nice whiltle/bell... and very good for lighting a room, but don't try to use it to join two pieces of metal  :)

To get a consistant X-ray quality Alternating Current GTA weld on aluminum... You must sufficiently etch the metal with EP and there is no way around it.   Now your $8,000 inverter has several ways around this issue..  But unfortunatly there is nothing published regarding succsessful standard practices for Aysemmetric AC power delivary on aluminum.

One way around the issue is to run your EP for a radically short dwell time.. 2-5% EP but at an equally radical amplitude.  Remember It doesn't so much matter how the EP is delivered, as long as it gets there in sufficient amounts.  A short blast of high amperage EP will do more than any pulsation/stirring your Miller rep ever suggests.  This kind of procedure (Asymmetric True Square Wave AC power) takes plenty of trials to nail down when you take it near the limit. Most of the time its just simpler to scale back to what you know will work rather than trying to create some designer wave form to do the same job a 1988 Synchrowave can do as soon as you slap the part on the workbench.

It becomes very easy with one of these fancy machines to go right to the limit of high performance and take that next step over it into the territory of diminishing returns....  Too much of a good thing etc.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-20-2008 15:47
Lawrence,

just before I have to leave the forum again, it's a  m u s t  for me to say this very briefly:

"Your explanations are truly extraordinary!"

Best regards and thanks for let me having learned somewhat again!
Stephan
Parent - By aerowelder (*) Date 05-20-2008 22:45 Edited 05-21-2008 22:46
Lawrence,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I am getting tired of reworking these two or three times before they pass x-ray. I am going to weld a new unit tomorrow trying your suggestions, decrease the time spent on EN to 55%, drop the HZ to around 200 and perform all cleaning after it is removed from the oven(plus keeping my fingers crossed). I also will change the size of tungsten to 1/8" so it can handle the extra time on EP. Should I increase the amperage of EP also? They should return from x-ray by Friday and I will post the results.
Parent - - By aerowelder (*) Date 05-24-2008 21:24
Lawrence,
I have welded a new part and have had it x-rayed. I only had one defect and that was a .050" tungsten inclusion. I believe that was because I first tried 3/32" and quickly realized that that was too small of a diameter. I did have a few pores of porosity but they were well within acceptable limits. Nothing like what I was getting before. Thank you for the handy tips. I was thinking contaminated gas but it was just my incorrect settings. I have learned something new today. I hope to use this information in the future.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-24-2008 21:41
I love it when a plan comes together!

:)
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 05-27-2008 01:43
Great call Lawrence!
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-20-2008 15:17
aerowelder,

first off, thanks for the information you have provided!

And as I thought, might there ever be a better explanation or bulk of excellent recommendations as even that what has come from Lawrence and... has additionally been confirmed by Tommy?

NO!

I would entirely agree with Lar when he says:

"During the several hours in the oven, those oxides you removed have grown right back..  Surface prep for aluminum (weld rod and componant) that is as critically inspected as you describe must be cleaned immediatly before welding."

and:

"Its not a gas problem (I bet)...   All the Kings horses and all the Kings men cannot overcome basic AC arc physics and the need for good cathodic etching."

Even as well the superior explanations on what the welding power supplies are capable to perform were an enjoyment to read. Truly excellent...

I humble mean to say that everything you have described is 100% professionalism in work and everything what Lawrence has stated is 100% of professional technological advice based upon immense expertise.

I am quite sure when following Lawrence' recommendations the problem will dissappear faster than it could emerge.

The idea with the hose materials might have been an "option" if the conditions were somewhat different from those ones you have reported. And I am certain if the hose materials were the reason for the porosity you surely would have observed "porosity problems" more than once since using this manifold system, serving so many workplaces with shielding gas.

And this finally would confirm the very first statement coming from Milton who said:

"If you use 99.99 UHP argon you shouldn't have to!"

It would be great if you might keep us in the loop for any progression in this very interesting topic*...

Best regards,
Stephan

* ...very interesting thread. Have learned a lot! Thanks for that!
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-18-2008 09:48
aerowelder,

forgive me, it was unkind of me to speak in the third person singular as far as the person, namely you, is present!

Please take my apologies.

It sounds very interesting to me what you have written.

Could you give us a bit more on information (base material, application,...)?

Thanks and heartfelt best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-18-2008 18:38
I have a *little* experience with an argon purifying device.

It was a little stainless object about the shape of a medium sized salami.  It was hooked to our piped in argon in order to meet above average purity standards for GTA welding Titanium compressors for Pratt and for various CFM engine componants. I recall being told not to touch it because it was somehow dangerous. It was mounted at the top of the Z axis of a Sciacky 6 axis Accuweld workstation.

I was simply the night shift welding operator at the time so I really don't know which specific procedures required the argon filter and what exactly the filter did mechanically....  I might be able to contact the engineer who did all the real thinking on these projects and see if he might recall some specifics about the purity standards and the equipment itself..  I don't know if the thing was specific to moisture or if it filterd other things as well.
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-19-2008 08:31
Hey Lawrence,

ahhh, as I guessed!

I really supposed that you may have experience with High Purity GTAW applications, as I really supposed that in particular Tommy (Aircraft Welding) and Henry (Master of Titanium-Welding), to name only two of many more appreciated colleagues, might have as well!

As for Tommy I was likewise right... :-)

Waiting now for Henry :-) and - hopefully - some more information from the post's initiator.

You know, I have a slightly different idea, since I can recall to have experienced somewhat in the past which has happened in a large German shipbuilding project.

The shielding gas Argon 4.6 (99.996%) has been delivered by - at that time the company has existed, but was meanwhile purchased by a large US-American Gas supplier - a highly esteemed German gas supplier.

I can remember the responsible gas supplier's welding engineer has called me on the phone to discuss the problem - which was porosity - or better the problem's solution, respectively.

Their client has assumed the shielding gas purity in regard to moisture was insufficient and had yield to even the porosity. As you can imagine, the gas supplier has disagreed with the customer and has searched for "multiple" support among experts on his argumentation at that time.

So far as I can say, it was not the gas purity, since as well as they have used Argon 5.0 (99.999%) they could not resolve the problem, what was the reason for my entire agreement with Miltons predications.

The final result whereas was an entirely different one, and this was extremely interesting and most impressive!

Finally and at the end of the day they used different gas hose materials which were more resistant against mositure or hydrogen diffusion(!!). The hoses, used within the hose packages and within the machine were exchanged by different ones. Please forgive me that I can't recall what kind of specific material it was at that time, but...

subsequent to these experiences there has been inquired a research project in Germany which was monetarily supported by a particular consortium of industrial companies.

Even this investigation has recently been carried out over a period of 2 years and the topic "gas hoses" to be used in GTAW has been investigated  e x t e n s i v e l y.  The results are concluded in a final report having a size of 204 pages(!). A tremendous number of measurements and calculations have been accomplished and - I must repeat - the results are very impressive.

This should - of course - not mean, that a purifying device used to dehydrate the shielding gas would not be the better solution. But as I have read what aerowelder has wrote, I was reminded immediately on these experiences. And additionally, I personally have - by now and quite comparable with what Tommy wrote (Never heard of a purifying device used in process before .....interesting.) - not seen any industrial application where a purifying device was used.

This is, why it was - once again - so interesting to having read what your extraordinary personal experience has shown here!

Thanks and best regards,
Stephan

P.S. Great link by Marty Sims...
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-19-2008 12:37
This look remarkably like the one we used back in the 1990's

https://www.mathesontrigas.com/pdfs/products/WeldAssure-Gas-Purifier.pdf
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 05-19-2008 15:01
Hmmm,

very interesting!

Never seen before!

Lawrence I hope you don't mind when I kindly ask: "Would you personally mean from your experience, that "normal" purity grades of e.g. argon are not(!) suitable for "normal" materials, e.g. Aluminum alloys?

I would have guessed that highly reactive materials as stated by OBEWAN (e.g. zirconium) would need some very special purity grades even e.g. Argon 4.8 or 5.0 but would have never guessed that "normal" purity grades, e.g. 4.6, would need additional devices to achieve sound results.

If so, I mean the gas suppliers might have a general problem, and a very serious one to say the least.

I would not believe that the gas manufacturers and suppliers would take the risk of providing shielding gases containing that high amounts of moisture that the welding results could fail.

Exceptions, of course, may prove the rule.

Even that was the reason for the investigation I have mentioned in my previous post. The driving force to inquire and subsequently carrying out this research project was even the gas supplying industry who wanted to clarify the issue once for all, and as I said, the results have shown that in particular the surrounding conditions (especially long-term humidity) can have a tremendous influence on the welding results when affecting the gas hose materials being used for hose packages etc. And this as well as for relatively "normal "base materials as aluminum and its alloys.

After the research was done, the gas supplying industry was "whitewashed" and regained its reputation again. :-)

But to keep it seriously. I am certain that the "gas people" do take their jobs very seriously in particular when considering what huge amount of importance shielding gases have on the physical welding conditions and the final welding results.

Whereas using such devices in highest level applications - as described by OBEWAN - for re-circulating e.g. the shielding gas from a shielding gas chamber, makes - at least in my humble opinion - quite sense. Since these materials as mentioned, most likely forgive nothing.

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-19-2008 15:24 Edited 05-20-2008 15:52
Stephen,

I make no judgement at all on the argon purification topic. It's way above my paygrade :)

My personal experience/observation has been that "welding grade gasses" do the job when they comply with specifications.  GTAW of Aluminum is like a Canary in a coal mine!  If the gas is bad the results are usually evident immediatly... Refractory alloys and Titanium are quite a different thing however.  The amount of oxygen or nitrogen (the most common contaminants by far) it takes to foul a titanium weld is far far below the threshold of contamination it takes to make a change in the surface color of the weld... This fact applies for both Alpha case and for the weld depth entire. A Titanium weld can be embrittled to the point of non conformance with a perfect visual appearence and perfect X-ray result. So I can see the motivation of an OEM to desire extra precautions in some specific instances.

I suspect the in line >gizmo< I mentioned that we used may have been a device that was a safety precaution stipulated by an OEM against some contaminant that might come during switching of bottles or filling of dewers.
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-19-2008 15:29
Ahhh!

I (mean to) understand! :-)

Very reasonable at all!

Thanks and best regards to you Lawrence!

Stephan
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 05-22-2008 12:47
OK, so a while back I was helping figure out a similar problem.
We didn't have so much of a porosity issue, but excessive discoloration of shielded SS autogenous GTAW tube welds.
At the time we were using 99.999% pure certified gas from a bulk liquid storage tank in which we received a purity cert from the vendor for every purchase, plus we were having a third party test the gas as well to validate purity.
However, when we had the gas tested from various weld station throughout the plant, we found slight moisture and oxygen impurities. At this point we started thinking about buying one of those expensive filters to add to the system.
I kept looking for a cause and the determining factor was that the further down the line from the bulk tank we got, the impurity level would rise as well.
Then I looked up at our manifold system and actually "saw" it for the first time as a carbon steel screw pipe manifold. That was one of those moments where I smacked myself in the forehead and said wake up stupid... It seems that the tiniest leak in a fitting not only allows pure gas to escape, it also allows impurities to enter. To make matters worse, the longer the manifold is allowed to sit without being used (weekend holidays etc.) the worse the contamination becomes as more moisture is allowed in which starts corrosion, which either worsens or makes more leaks.
Anyway, we ran some SS tubing straight from the bulk tank connection to the auto welder stations and Viola!, no more problems.
Also let me point out that during this time I learned that the green rubber gas hose typically used to connect a welder to a bottle or manifold absorbs moisture at such a rate as to effectively ruin gas purity for SS autogenous welding and Titanium welding. HDPE hose, if any is a must.

Tim
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 05-22-2008 15:45
Tim,

thank you very much for sharing your experiences and for hereby picking up this interesting topic again!

Quote:

"I kept looking for a cause and the determining factor was that the further down the line from the bulk tank we got, the impurity level would rise as well."

Unquote.

Your experience is quite comparable with what has been found out - even though in another coherence (plastic hoses) - in the course of the mentioned investigation. The longer the hoses and the more susceptible the material was for moisture diffusing/effusing the worse the problems occurred. This is understandable due to the influence of unit area as one important variable within the equation of how much impurities can be assumed finally.

Your statement (quote):

"It seems that the tiniest leak in a fitting not only allows pure gas to escape, it also allows impurities to enter." (unquote)

confirms whereas what Marty has already said by posting (quote):

"... so the most likely problems have to be ruled out first, such as hose connections...".

Unquote.

And this Tim (quote):

"Anyway, we ran some SS tubing straight from the bulk tank connection to the auto welder stations and Viola!, no more problems." (unquote)

hits, from my humble standpoint, the nail right on the head!

There can surely be nothing better chosen than Stainless Steel hosing for shielding gas manifolds. You experts may correct me when I am wrong by thinking so, but all what I have read and heard, stainless steel (+ leak-proved connections) appears to be the optimal solution for shielding gas manifolds.

However, as for the materials being used within the hose packages please let me list hereinafter, what the examination has yield.

To avoid all the very tricky details of the investigation I list subsequently even those four hose materials been strongly recommended to be used for shielding gas hoses in welding:

1.  BUTYL (http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Public_Products/Butyl/Butyl_Polymers/Worldwide/Grades_and_DataSheets/Butyl_Polymers_Exxon_Butyl_Grades.asp)
2.  PTFE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene)
3.  PVDF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinylidene_fluoride)
4.  A particular shielding gas hose which is available in Europe and which is a kind of special plastic composite material. However, there are no further details on its specific composition available.

What has been found out as well is, that it should be avoided to use "silicon hoses " in welding, since silicon is extremely leaky against nitrogen diffusion.

Yours was an excellent contribution to this thread, if you permit that I say so! :-)

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-20-2008 08:19
I have to agree with Lawrence on the prep work being out of step...settings on inverters I am not help at so I agree with all that too!!

Stephan    I am very honored you put my name in among the likes of Lawrence and Henry.....but those two gentlemen have a vast amount of more experience/knowledge in exotic-critical GTAW then I do.  They have done stuff I have not even imagined yet.  TYVM tho!

Best Regards
Tommy
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 05-19-2008 03:52
If there is moisture, then the dew point of the gas is too high.  You need a dew point of -40 F or lower.

http://www.drierite.com/default.cfm

Go to the catalog and click on Laboratory Gas Drying Unit.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-19-2008 04:48 Edited 05-19-2008 04:52
This is weird ...the post I mean.   I was getting (visual) porosity on some 5052 welds today.....I knew the cleaning procedures were done right because I did them, I checked the machine contacts and everything I could think of, then I checked my hoses for leaks....I just put a new bottle on the previous night...so.  I put my machine regulator on my backup gas bottle and volia....problems went away immediately.  I rekon I got a bottle with some air in it or something.

Never heard of a purifying device used in process before .....interesting.

hey Marty  that looks like the same stuff the put in the doors of the planes to remove mosture....wow I guess I could swipe some canisters and make my own gas filters eh?
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 05-20-2008 22:23
I think there are a couple of factors that are usually involved when shielding gas problems occur.  If the gas bottle valve is left open when the cylinder is empty, air and moisture will contaminate the bottle.  The gas distributor is "supposed" to pull a vacuum on the cylinder prior to filling to remove any air or moisture that may be present.  The folks they hire to fill these cylinders are not always the sharpest tool in the shed and sometimes take shortcuts by filling the cylinder without pulling a vacuum first.  The problem generally shows up as porosity, so the most likely problems have to be ruled out first, such as hose connections.  Hardly anyone has the equipment to check the dew point of the gas to verify it is correct, so it's hard to convince the gas supplier it is gas contamination unless you either have the proper equipment or happen to be present when the cylinders are filled.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 05-21-2008 16:57
MBSims , I thought the same until we change suppliers, I was told that they use a valve now when the cylinder get down to so many pounds of pressure  it will close and it can't be contaminated.
I was always told not to empty the cylinders because of that years a go.
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 05-22-2008 04:06
Interesting.  Apparently they are using "residual pressure valves" which are designed to maintain a minimum pressure in the cylinder, as you said.  I don't think they are mandatory, so some gas suppliers may not be using them.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-19-2008 05:36
I wonder if a refrigerent drier from a HVAC shop would work, they are relatively inexpensive and easy to get.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-19-2008 12:15
Yes.  Run a Google search or ask a welding gas distributor.  We had one about 20 years ago on an argon welding chamber used to weld nuclear reactor cores for the navy.  Zirconium is very sensitive to gas purity.  In fact, in addition to moisture, it removed other contaminants.  We used to recirculate the chamber gas.  I don't recall the brand name now.  I never tampered with it.  It was just there.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-19-2008 16:36
I ran a quick Google search and did not find anything specific.  What we had was a "gas dryer".  It had some heating elements and I think some kind of metal mesh.  It removed water vapor and oxygen.  Our welding was so sensitive that moisture coming out of the oxide layer due to heat buildup could contaminate our gas.  Part of me thinks we had a Miller gas dryer, but I went to the website and found nothing.  It was a large blue unit - as big as a Tig weld power supply.  The gas line went in "dirty" and came out "clean".
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 05-19-2008 17:00
Found one gas dryer.  You may not need it though for your application.

The Orion II Gas Dryers are capable of achieving levels of less than 5 PPM of moisture and oxygen. ... Essential for setting up precise weld schedules ...The web link errors for me - you might need to just use the .com as a link.

www.polariselectronics.com/Pages/Options1.html
Parent - By ason1965 (*) Date 05-19-2008 21:10 Edited 05-27-2008 14:58
I talked to a PMI guy the other day and his piece of equipment needed extra pure/dry argon as well. He used 'laboratory pure' argon.  Which is a step up from the 99.99 % argon, I guess.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / argon purity

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