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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / To hold your guys certs or not to hold, that is the question
- - By Kix (****) Date 05-27-2008 13:06
     What are your opinions about giving your men copies of there certification paper work or a card with their qualification on it?  I know a lot of companies just keep all that stuff on record and the welders never see it.  Another thread brought up this question and I'm interested on everyones opinions.

Ray C.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-27-2008 14:53
Hey Ray,

Unless the company policy is to not provide them a copy of the certs, I do if asked. There is also nothing that prohibits me from providing them a letter or signed staement indicating that

I xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx currently employed as a welding inspector for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx have witnessed welder performance qualification testing performed by xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx and found the results to be in accordance with the applicable code or standard. The list below indicates the material, position, process and code/standard.

This statement does not indicate certification for welding in accordance with any code, standard or company requirements outside of  that performed while employed by xxxxxxxxxxx.

Carbon Steel             3G/4G               FCAW, SMAW, GTAW                AWS D1.1
Stainless Steel           3G/4G                        GTAW                           AWS D1.6
Nickel Alloys                6G                           GMAW-Pulsed                 ASME Sec IX

Gerald Austin
Blah Blah Blah

Guys draggin up in the middle of the job are out of luck in my opinion. Most people that I have come across that are wanting these have just recently gotten into the trade. I want to help them all I can. I do always try to check with the company I am working for.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 05-27-2008 15:02
What do you mean by the guys that drag up in the middle of the job are out of luck? 
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-27-2008 15:23
If someone drags up before completion of a project, I don't put any effort into providing any documentation of what they tested for on that job. Since any record of certification is the property of the company, there is no obligation to provide any information.

I try to provide it for people when asked and if allowed by the company. If someone quits(drags up) I imagine they already have a job lined up.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-27-2008 15:46
It is always amusing when they drag up and run to another company with thier "cert's" thinking this is an "ace in the hole" only to be informed that they will indeed have to retest. Suprise Suprise!! 

I even received a call from one gentleman, cursing me because the company he applied for laughed at him when he said he should not have to test since he was already "certified".

jrw
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-27-2008 15:55
It is funny . I have welded for taxable money since 1979 or 80. I have never shown anyone my "Certs" other than the boilermakers who indicated the 6 years of being a nuc welder and having certs in 7 base metal, 3 processes, small diameter, restricted access etc would only count for 2000 hours of experience and that my other 10+ years of non union welding in boilers, pressure vessels and piping were not counted.

I went in the apprenticship program anyway and loved it.

Other valuable documents that I have never shown are my DD214 from the military (except to get in the reserves), My HS Diploma (Don't know where it is), and the dreaded "Permanent Record" from all those things I did on school. :). Not that those are not valuable but the great thing about welding is that often you can show up with no references, no employement history, no "buddies" and weld up a coupon like a professional, and your in.

I love it !

Gerald
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-27-2008 17:28
Ray,

You have email @ your Seagrave account !
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-27-2008 16:54
To my way of thinking, that is more or less just like giving someone a favorable reference.  I have seen welders who are qualified that I wouldn't necessarily give a favorable reference to.

On the other hand, I don't like denying someone their evidence that they can perform a procedure.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 05-27-2008 23:22
The qualification papers belong to the company who paid for them. I used to get copies for the welders if they asked, but no more. Got bit in the backside by one and have adopted the no qualification papers for you welder! This could turn into a legal issue if a welder is using papers you signed and provided for him. Under ASME Section IX the qualification documentation belongs to the owner. IF the owner gives permission, he has the copy and someone else can give them to the little darlin. But not me!
I tell any welder who has done me a good job if they need a reference to put me down. I have never got a call.
I have one exception and that is a welders first test. If he passes I give him a UNSIGNED copy of the papers. I print my name but no stamp or signature.
BABRT's
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 05-28-2008 12:38
What if you work for the company and do all the testing yourself?  The only money the companny is dishing out is for the material and time loss for the test.  I have no arguement with not wanting to lose your weders because I just lost one myself.  This new company was paying more then we do, so actually a few guys went over there and tested, but not all of them made the big jump.  I take pretty good care of my welders and I do give them a copy of my paperwork.  It might not be the most cost effective thing to do in some circumstances, but I feel they deserve it.  Hell, it might help bring the pay for welders closer to what they're worth someday.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 12:54
I have the same thing here...I test them all that come in and give them a copy of their paperwork, if they leave so be it...I think most of the other fabricators in our area feel the same way. If somebody can make better money somewhere else, why hold their papers? They will leave anyway and get retested, same if they left somewhere else to come to us. We have a few that jump from place to place, but then we have a whole group of guys that have stuck with us here for many years...I'm working on my 24th year here and there are a whole group of guys retiring from our plant that have way more time in than that....so it must not be too bad of a place to work.
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 05-28-2008 13:29
What if you give a structural welder a copy of his certs, he goes out later on and starts his own business doing welding at jobsites, the cert you signed is approved to be used on that jobsite, and somewhere down the line some of the welds fail, resulting in a lawsuit? The same thing could happen if a welder is certified by an outside agency, but at least that cert wouldn't have your name on it or your company's name on it, so, why take the risk? As everyone knows, previous certs typically aren't honored, but that doesn't mean that they won't be honored at some point in time.  Stranger things have happened, right?
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-28-2008 13:45
What happens if the guy fails while he is WORKING for the company. That would be a much bigger concern. The certificate in and of itself has the name of the company by which he was certified. If a second company accepts that previous certification and has a failure who is at fault? The welders skill has probably not changed. However the company that accepted his previous certification is at fault if they did not take the responsibility for verifying the welders capabilities.

If previous certs are honored then the party that honors the certs takes responsibility by most codes.(In cases where that is allowed)
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 13:55
To me the paper is worthless...legally, when the certified welder leaves our employment. It only serves as a record that this welder was able to successfully produce a single weld while in our employ, and it satisfies the AWS D1.1 requirements to allow the welder to produce production welds on our shop floor.......which is why every employer should test their own people. I don't feel that it should be legal for an employer to accept another employer's paperwork as their own, which is what they are doing.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 13:59
Scott wouldn't the WPS that this solo-welder is using be in question moreso than his certification...in this case? Which he probably doesn't have if he had to resort to using his previous employer's paperwork.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 14:11 Edited 05-28-2008 14:25
swnorris,
  If the "company cert's" are worded correctly, such as is depicted in an earlier post, this will reflect the "company's" procedure. If another company decides to honor this WQTR then they have taken responsibility for that welder and his capability or lack of capability to make a sound weld, thus releiving the previous company of any liability. This is another aspect of the CYA game. One should always review the document to make sure that it has all the fine print in place so as to not mislead anyone who may view it in the future.

So if for example I work for "XYZ Const." and qualify a welder to thier written prequalified procedure, and that welder then goes to "Joes welding" and apply's showing them the WQTR from "XYZ Const." and "Joe's" hires this welder and puts him to work without testing him/her they are responsible for that welder. IMHO

While it is possible for something like this to happen, I have not seen it, and IMO one would be quite foolish to not test a welder based on a cert from another company.

Having said that, I might test a welder with current cert's from another company before I would test someone who has nothing to show, but test them I would.

What you have suggested could very well happen so you have a valid point, and I feel that again it is all about CYA, and attention to detail.

John

EDIT: See AWS D1.1 06 4.1.2.1 and 4.1.2.2 - If EOR approves, it is his/her baby, and they would be good to go. If EOR does not approve and the welder is allowed to weld anyways, said company is not in conformance with the code. Still thier baby. And again this is only if documentation has been properly as stated in 4.1.2.1, CYA style, if you will.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 14:22
John, I have seen some smaller erection companies that had papers that were accepted from previous employers. I can't see how they pass any type of an audit, yet these folks are out there bidding work right along side of the AISC certified folks and under bidding....this stinks because as most know it takes some serious funding to keep all of this AISC certification up to date. Project owners sometimes will take the low bid even though the company who wins that bid is not qualified to perform the work as the project's contract states....I can't see how this continues to be a problem after all of these years, but it is.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 14:40
John,
  I must agree that it is a bogus and foolish way of going about it, and one can only hope that if and when this catches up to them that no lives are lost as a result.

As far as passing an audit, I guess if the requirements of AWS D1.1 4.1.2.1 & 4.1.2.2 are met then it should fly, but I would not want it flying over my house/head/family.

I would venture to say that in the cases that you have described, they are probably not in conformance and if they are the EOR does not fully understand what they are signing off.

For example I had a case where EOR called out CJP welds that the welders were not qualified to weld. When approached by production about signing off so that work could proceed, EOR stated "sure, I can do that" however when I explained to the EOR that he would not be signing off on the joint configuration but rather the lack of documentation to show the welders ability to produce a code weld he decided that it was not in his best interest to sign off. As it turned out EOR could warrant calling out PJP, and with a few changes to the drawing we were good to go.

It is sad to say, but just as there are welders that are certified but not qualified, the same happens with inspectors as well as engineers, and I guess everything else for that matter.

jrw159
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 05-28-2008 14:28
John W, Yes it would.

My response was in relation to employees who leave a company with a copy of their cert and go on to weld in the field with that cert.  I see a potential problem with that, and because of that, I don't allow anyone to have a copy of their cert.  If they leave without a copy of their cert, that eliminates any possibility of a failure being linked to you or your company.  Even though a second company accepts a previous cert, and that company is then responsible, if there is a failure, for starters, someone's going to drag everybody into the lawsuit that they can possibly drag into it, and sort out the responsible parties during the hearings.  I'm just saying that if you put your name out there, you're subject to that.  That's all I'm saying. 

In my opinion, and based on shop and field welds I've seen, and field welding issues I've been involved with, a guy's welds failing while he is working for the company is less likely to happen than should he choose to leave that company and go out on his own, because welding in a shop is in a much more controlled environment that is constantly being supervised and verified in process by Quality Control, and all welds are, at a minimum, 100% visually verified.  In the field, some of the welds are not even looked at because the inspector arrives after some of the welds are made and covered up, or he was at another site that day, and when he returns he can't access the welds to look at them, etc.  This stuff actually happens.

Even though it is quite foolish to use another company's welder cert, it happens.  I've seen it.  Lots of dishonesty and unethical practices going on out there.  I just think you're opening yourself up to a potential issue that would not otherwise arise if you hadn't given a welder a copy of his cert.   
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-28-2008 14:44
Swnorris,
  You are correct and I can certainly see the reasoning behind it. You are in fact taking the ultimate step to CYA. This does indeed make sense to me, and depending on the situation I would do the same.

jrw159
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-28-2008 16:57
*Sniff* I smell a move in the not-so-distant future to a national database.  License welders just like plumbers and doctors.
Parent - By wyo220 Date 05-29-2008 02:05
To me testing is part of a welders life.  I have a box full of papers that I have been given,  and as mentioned before the only one that really means anything to me is the first butt/branch I made.  In my area alot of the smaller gas companies/operators use the papers were given from the big boys to meet their testing criteria.  In this aspect I can understand why more and more companies keep thier papers in house, they are sick of testing welders for other companies.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / To hold your guys certs or not to hold, that is the question

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