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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Effective throat in flare bevels?
- - By gfr12345 Date 05-28-2008 21:50
Is it acceptable to call out a flare bevel weld with only the "Depth of preparation" out and not the "effective throat" on structural shop drawings.  Basically, all I am showing on the left side of my weld symbol is 1/4.  Now one of our clients are asking us to include paranthesis around all flare bevels welds or to show additionally the effective throat. 

If the engineer calls out a 1/4" flare bevel weld, Do I have to include the parenthesis?
What are your takes on a "quarter inch flare bevel?

The AISC 13th edition Table 8-2 for Prequalified Welded Joints shows this but does not mention if this is always required.  Read some of these forum posts and thought I would as some of you gurus your thoughts.

Thanks.
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 05-28-2008 22:08
Take a look at  D 1.1 ,Flare Bevel Groove Weld.

Regardless  of  everything ,  the weld  size  F O R  J O I N T S  W E L D E D     F L U S H  the size of the weld works  out to  5/8  times

the adjoining member thickness   -

So if you have one of these babies and fill it up flush to the top  the most the weld size can be  is  5/8  T -

How  would you evaluate what your depth of  penetration  was , anyway  ?
Parent - - By gfr12345 Date 05-28-2008 23:41
I agree with you.  So does the AISC 13th edition in table-2 on 8-62.  The parenthesis are what I was concerned with.  A client of ours is saying that we "need" to show parenthesis around the size.  I have not done this before for a standard flare bevel weld. . . nore have my colegues.  We are 80% through a project and I do not want to have to revise 100s of sheet.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 00:52 Edited 05-29-2008 01:07
I hate to say this, but most of the structural drawings I've used have welding symbols that are thirty years out of sync with the current revision of AWS A2.4. I'm not sure if it is simply some structural detailers don't care or are too lazy or too poor to purchase the most recent editions of A2.4 to keep up to date with the most recent requirements.

When I mention to the engineers that the symbols are incorrect and I need better information the reply is usually, "You know what I need, just make sure the welders put on enough weld." Poof! Now I'm the designer as well as the inspector!

I did a presentation on welding symbols at a meeting for professional structural engineers about three or four years ago. I opened with a 5 question quiz. A simple quiz, no symbols involving complex welding symbols or multiple reference lines, and not one of them answered all five question correctly.

Since the 13th edition of the AISC Steel Construction Manual is mentioned; Table 8-2, page 8-16, shows a flare bevel groove weld and symbol which indicates the weld size (E) is a required element. While I know that AWS D1.1 - 2006 is not the referenced edition in the 13th edition of the SCM, it does require the weld size of all PJP groove welds be included in the welding symbol. This requirement has been around for as long as I can remember and I go back to the 1970's.

It is interesting that the figure 80% was included in the post, because that is about the percentage of structural drawings I see with welding symbol errors. I usually quote the figure 85%, but what's 5% plus or minus amongst friends.

So as for jumping on the band wagon and joining with those of us in the new millennium, why bother. You might just as well continue to use the welding symbols that predate the 1976 edition of AWS A2.4 and when asked what your welding symbol means, just say, "You know what I want, just do it." That's the answer we've grown accustom to.

Remember my example in a response from a couple of days ago, a 3/4 circle at the apex of the leader and reference line means........... All together now: "Any idiot knows it means almost all the way around!"

How can you expect the welder or the inspector or your customer to read your mind? Use the proper welding symbol and follow the conventions that have been agreed to by AISC and AWS. If a standard welding symbol, i.e., one that is complient with A2.4, doesn't describe the weld you have in mind, draw a cross section through the weld and provide the information needed by the welders and inspectors.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 01:09
I wish I could rate this one!!  ***
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 01:20
Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think! ;)

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 01:28
BRAVO!!!
APLUASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 02:23
Thank you kind sir.

Al
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-29-2008 02:28
NO SIR!!  Thank YOU!!

John :-)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Effective throat in flare bevels?

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