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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / BAD WELD Possible cause of NYC Crane Collapse
- - By awspartb (***) Date 05-31-2008 14:53
To all the rubber stamp inspectors out there who sign off on crap welds , read below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/31/nyregion/31crane.html?_r=2&ei=5065&oref=slogin&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Investigators are focusing on a bad weld as the possible cause of an accident on Friday in which the top of a crane snapped off, crashed into a building across the street and killed two construction workers, the city's acting buildings commissioner said.

Investigators were also trying to determine whether a crucial part of the crane -- the rotating plate that connects the cab and boom at the top to the tower -- had been removed from a different construction job a year ago after developing a dangerous crack, another city official said.

The thrust of the investigation indicated that city officials believe Friday's accident had a very different set of causes from the fatal crane collapse that occurred in March: namely, that the condition of the equipment rather than mistakes made in setting it up were behind the crash.
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 06-01-2008 00:43
Boy I'd hate to be the inspector who signed off on this repair.  To all those rubber stamp inspectors out there signing off on CRAP welds, read below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/nyregion/01collapse.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

The Manhattan district attorney's office has opened a criminal investigation into a fatal crane accident on the East Side, focusing on whether a part of the crane had been seriously damaged last year and then inappropriately put back into service, an official involved in the investigation said on Saturday.

The piece in question is a rotating apparatus, or turntable, that connects the operator's cab and the boom to the crane tower. The official said investigators believed but were not certain that the turntable involved in Friday's accident, on East 91st Street, was damaged during construction on West 46th Street last year.

In both jobs, the cranes were owned by the New York Crane and Equipment Corporation. The owner of the company, James F. Lomma, did not return calls.

If the turntable in Friday's accident is the same as the one damaged last year, the district attorney's office will try to answer several questions, people involved in the investigation said. Those questions include: Did the Department of Buildings order New York Crane to dispose of the cracked turntable? If New York Crane was authorized to repair the turntable, was the work done correctly? And was the Buildings Department required to sign off on those repairs?
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-01-2008 01:52
Woa!
Wait a minute!
Maybe it was not the weld that failed but the parent metal adjacent to the weld. Fatigue, poor weld joint design, poor structural design.
simply because there is a weld failure we want to say it was poor inspection. What about the previous failure. I have not heard anything about what cused that failure.
The New York Times reported it was a weld failure??? yea that is the standard for truth
BABRT's
Parent - By awspartb (***) Date 06-01-2008 10:34 Edited 06-01-2008 10:39
I'm just pointing this out as a reminder to all the rubber stamp inspectors out there who don't even look at a weld but sign off on it anyway.  I'm sure you know the type of inspector I'm talking about.  People can and do die.

We've all seen the "hurry up and slap some weld metal on that crack" attitude some of these contractors have.  It wouldn't surpise me if nobody inspected this repair after it was made.  I've seen this crap go on for years in the construction industry and it sickens me because people are getting killed.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 06-01-2008 14:20
dbigkahuna

You make a good point.  The Times might not be lying.   The reporters are not CWI's.  They see a failure in a weld or near a weld and it looks like a weld failure.  It would be best to wait for the "Official" report to come out several month's from now.  Everything else is just punditry.

Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 06-02-2008 01:29 Edited 06-02-2008 02:22
Dear Mr. Kane,

"THE TIMES" are not focusing on  bad welds, they are reporting what they are being told by officials.   Investigators  such as building inspectors, CWI's, structural engineers, District attorney, etc are looking into this.  May I suggest you go back and read the full article?   If you've ever been to NYC, you'd know what it's like to live under the shadow of one of these OLD cranes for months at a time.  PEOPLE ARE DYING!

This is the same crane outfit that KILLED 7 people in NYC back in March of 2008 when another crane collapsed.  Total Death Toll = 9.
One company, one city, one quarter of a year.  Fewer people died erecting the Empire State Building.
Do you think there may be a problem here?
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 06-02-2008 02:00
Not saying there is a problem, it just may not be a WELDING or INSPECTION problem.
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 06-02-2008 02:18
It may not be a proven welding problem at this time but it IS an inspection problem.  The head of  "corruption riddled Buildings Department" just resigned a month before this "accident". 

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=104&sid=1391032

NEW YORK (AP) - Even critics credited Patricia Lancaster for trying to reform New York City's inefficient, corruption-riddled Buildings Department.

During her six years as commissioner, she rewrote an outdated building code, created online databases for nearly 1 million city properties, stepped up inspections and wrote new safety rules.

But the reforms couldn't stop a spike in deadly construction accidents, which brought increasing complaints about Lancaster's agency. She resigned Tuesday under fire from irate residents and Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

"I felt it was time to return to the private sector," Lancaster, one of the few Bloomberg administration commissioners to leave in a crisis, said in a statement. "I am proud of the groundbreaking work the department has done during my tenure to root out corruption, increase transparency, overhaul the building code and increase safety for workers and the public alike."
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 06-14-2008 16:06
awspartb,
it still might not be an inspection problem. The inspector could have inspected it according the acceptance rejection criteria and at the time of his/her inspection found it to be acceptable. A crack in a weld could take a long time to be visually seen. If the crack started in the aparent metal it could take some time to propagate into the weld. A failure analysis is the only way to know. It could be exactly what you said. It could be an inspector error. I think it is premature to say at this time.

Jim
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 10:48
I would have to agree.
a) Is it a crack to begin with?
b) What was the welding requirements of the weld in question?
c) Inspection requirements?
d) Engineering involvement?

Those and a few dozen more questions would have to be answered before pinning this on any given person or group.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 11:47
Sounds like lot's of attorneys (on each side) will be looking a few very high $$$$$$$$ welding experts to me!!!
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 13:48
Yes, and my guess is the the smallest tater in the patch will be the one that takes the fall.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 14:09
Sounds like a job for Welding and Joining Management Group West. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 16:21 Edited 06-16-2008 16:30
jrw159, with all due respect brother, be very careful what ya hope for!!!!  Not sure I'd touch that one with a 50 foot pole, even if I were qualified!!!

EDIT: What I mean is this is a job for those Metallurgical PhD, Masters in Welding Engineer, Level III across the board, yada yada yada... pseudo cum wanna be attorney types... who probably couldn't build a picnic table, but can talk circles in the scientific world type... there might be two or three handfuls of the type that could take a case like this and run with it all the way to the bank...
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-16-2008 17:02 Edited 06-16-2008 17:04
Jon,
  Let me clarify. :-) I do not work for them, although I would in a heartbeat, but Dr. Grantham specializes in forensic analisys in these sort of instances. However, I on the other hand would have absolutly no qualifications that would be benificial in this investigation.  Here is a link to thier website.

http://www.wjmg.com/

Best regards,
jrw159

EDIT: I am in no way trying to speak for Dr. Grantham. IMHO he is one of those types of guys that could handle it. Then again, maybe not, I have been wrong before and I am not done yet. LOL
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-18-2008 00:51
Hi awspartb!!

In case you're still wondering, my friend and colleague, as I also am aware of what's really going on with  - Mr. Joseph Kane is from the Long island area, and he has been to NYC many, many times, and is very, very familiar about the goings on in NYC as I also am aware of what's really going on with the construction practices in NYC!!!

Now, I'm not attempting to defend Joe because after all, He can do an excellent job of that without my help!!! The man is a "legend' when it comes to welding inspection in the greater New York Metropolitan area so, please don't assume that he's sharing his views without the appropriate experience or background!!! Far from it!!!

My friend of many years who just happens to be an operating engineer, and works at many sites in the New York city area  told me that all of this "blather" being spewed out to the public is nothing more than a disinformation campaign, and an excuse to to fill the columns in their media vehicles... (press, broadcast, and cable news outlets, etc.)

Dbigkahunna, Joe Kane, Jim Hughes, CWI555, jon20013, JS55, and JRW159 are basically saying the same thing... Until there is a very thorough investigation completed, and once the lawyers plot their strategies to achieve the most bang for each buck they're going to win, The Media, and the public will be continuously be misled as to what was the real cause of these failures!!! The New York Times??? I must agree with Dbigkahunna: "yea that is the standard for truth" Meaning, if you think that they don't have a hidden agenda in connection to this latest, or even the last two crane accidents in NYC, then I have a bridge available for purchase in lower MANHATTAN FOR DIRT CHEAP!!! ;) ;) ;) Btw, it connects Manhattan to what once was considered the 4th largest city in the USA!!! Can you guess the names of the bridges that actually do connect Manhattan to this now very famous borough of New York City???
I'll give you a hint... You have three choices!!! ;) ;) ;) Please don't anyone help him on this question... TIA!!!

One last question... How many times have you been to NYC or have worked there??? I know one thing for sure... Not as many times as myself or Mr. Joseph Kane!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By awspartb (***) Date 06-18-2008 01:18
More info pointing to "bad welding job" as cause of crane collapse................

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7011203923

Insurance Report Indicates New York City Crane Accident Due To Bad Welding Job

Vittorio Hernandez - AHN News Writer
New York, NY (AHN) - The crane that fell on 91st St. and First Ave. in New York City on May 30 appears to have contained a rebuilt part from a crane that was hit by lightning in 2007.

After a worker noticed a growing crack on the turntable at the top of the crane that holds the cab, the owner had it removed to avert a disaster. Unfortunately, it appears that the same turntable part might have been recycled and used on the crane in the recent accident. If that is the case, investigators suspect that a bad welding job might have resulted in the May 30 accident.

According to a report of the NationsBuilders Insurance Services, the insurer of the crane owner, the weld gave way and the cab of the crane fell 23 floors, resulting in the death of two workers. The findings point to the culpability of Buildings Department officials if they failed to properly perform their supervisory function over the crane's operator, New York Crane and Equipment.

According to reports, the city building department has suffered a high rate of turnover making it difficult to follow up on inspections.

What worsened City Hall's image is the arrest on Friday of James Delayo, acting chief inspector of the Cranes and Derricks Unit for alleged bribe taking involving his approval of cranes for review and passing fake reports. But Delayo was not directly connected with inspection reports for the two recent crane accidents, although the incident raised questions over the safety of all cranes being used in the Big Apple.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-18-2008 01:29
Still, the official detailed report has not yet been released by an independent investigation whereby no one in the investigation is either directly or indirectly affected by the findings so, if you seriously think that this report of the NationsBuilders Insurance Services, the insurer of the crane owner is going to be unbiased in it's findings, then I've got not one, but THREE bridges for sale that are connected to Lower Manhattan for a bargain price!!! ;)

C'mon there awspartb!!! I would've expected better than this response from you of all folks!!! No offense!!! :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By and4rik (**) Date 06-18-2008 04:06
To quote awspartb: "After a worker noticed a growing crack on the turntable at the top of the crane that holds the cab, the owner had it removed to avert a disaster"
Wow! a worker doing an inspectors job...  the way I learned to weld was get it done, right, the first time, however long it takes,,  When yer done sweppin up the slag, then call the inpector to check your weld.  

Cuz this is my
United States of Whatever!
And this is my
United States of Whatever!
And this is my
United States of Whatever!

-- Complimentary "    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz7_3n7xyDg
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-18-2008 12:07
The thing to keep in mind is that at this time no one knows for sure. Hence the use of words such as-

speculate
speculation
appears
might
allegedly
alleged
IF
possible
and last but not least,
Investigation

jrw159
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / BAD WELD Possible cause of NYC Crane Collapse

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