Hi, new to the forum and hope this is the best place to post this.
To anyone kind enough to answer, I have a few questions. Please keep in mind they are coming from someone beyond a newbie. I've never welded
at all.
BTW, I did use the Search feature first so please don't flame me lol I understand I will get mixed answers to my questions and that not all career paths are the same.
When you FIRST got into welding, what is the one thing no one told you that you wished you'd known?
If someone goes to a tech school and gets their AWS course done, then goes to apply for a welding job, I've read here you still have to 'test' for the job wether you're a 100% rookie or not. I'm curious as to how a "100%, never been a welder" and knows no tools nor welding terms could pass a test for a welding job.
What is a fair wage for a new welder? Do you think it should be different than the wage of a welder who did go to college to prepare or not?
How do you go from an apprentice welder to working in other specialities? IOW, say you are a new welder and get [insert special cert]. How long was it before you could actually *work* in that specialty? Do you have to qualify, in terms of x years worked, before you can take further certifications?
Did you pursue your certifications on your own and pay for them or did your company?
There's a company near me and someone suggested I 'just go down and talk to them' and maybe they'd hire and train me themselves. OK, that sounds good ( though I have serious doubts about passing any kind of test they'd give specific to welding ). But in a case like that, does it limit new opportunities to specalize or are the odds the same as if you'd gone to a college welders course ( I mean for newbies )?
Once you have a few years under your belt and certifications achieved, let's say you're working as a rig welder. How easy would it be for you to translate the skills there to say, welding freighters?
Also, what sorts of discrimination do you think exist in the field, if any? Like, if a guy's really skinny and small, how much heat would he take or does it matter so long as he can do the work? I know there are women welders, but do their peers try to make life on the job unbearable for them or is that an unfair stereotype of welders in general, ( I mean based on what the typical white collar crowd might assume ), and they take the same heat as anyone else? And for you who have been in the field many years and are more mature workers, do you find that your age now hinders you from being hired?
And, on a welding crew is the boss a foreman? And, maybe slightly off topic, are you guys feeling like companies are trying these days to limit worker rights by limiting the power of your union? Do you see the union going away or getting stronger?
Thank you and I'm looking forward to reading answers to any or all of the questions. I apologize for my glaring ignorance, but the fact is I AM ignorant about the career field at this point.
i think those are great questions to ask. i'll touch on a couple and i know others will chime in. first, starting as a welder first thing right off the bat isn't the only way to becoming a welder. take myself for example, i started as a shop laborer doing anything from sweeping the floors to punching holes to working in the paintshop and various other things. i used all that to my advantage and payed attention to how EVERYTHING was done, the best first hand schooling you can get is watching and helping. in the meantime my foreman let me practice welding whenever i wanted....breaktime, lunchtime,before work, after work, i took advantage of that opportunity and shortly after he put me in as a welder. during my time as a welder i kept soaking everything in and learning as much as i could from my mentors at work. then shortly after i became the foreman, all the while soaking everything in like a sponge, then shortly after i became production manager, then QC manager... blah blah blah. the point is, you don't have to be something at the gate in order to be that something at the finish line. second, " if a guy's real skinny and small" don't worry about it. visualize that in your head and you will see me.... 5'7 130 pounds, but that does not mean i am frail or weak, my will is stronger than most 250 pound people, and i can still throw steel around better than most of them. this trade is only the second most rewarding thing in my life, following behind my family. my experience is shop related and no other. hope it helps out a little.
regards,
JJ
I can't really answer the first part because I grew up around the pipe trades all my life. Everything I knew about it came from my dad and cousins, who were pretty good at letting me know how it was and what to expect.
Yes, you still have to test at 99% of every job you go on. When you learn to weld, you'll pick up what tools are what and how they are used. You also pick up alot when you're on the job. Best thing to do would be to work in a shop doing whatever side of the trade (pipefitting, boilermaking, pipeline) you're wanting to get into and pick everybodys brain about what this or that is. Most of all, don't be afriad to ask if you don't know what something is. Most will try to help a new guy out cause we've been there before. Passing a welding test don't involve alot of tools that you gotta know. Knowing how to weld and what to look for is more important on that part.
Average pay for a welder depends on where, what, and who for. Different areas of the country pay different scales. You will get paid more for doing certain things (pipe will pay more than structural, etc.). Most new welders will start at a rate comparable to their skill. Probly around 17-20 per hour for piping and 12-14 for structural. I started out at 10 and hour right out of high school and thought I was making a killing at that time. Damn I was wrong.
Alot of your specialty certs (inconel, stainless, chrome) come from on the job. Atleast, thats how it happened for me. They would come up to you and ask if you wanted to test for a certain process and you could say yes or no. They would let you practice a little if they could or needed that certain cert bad enough. Another way is to just get some certain kind of rod that you want to weod and practice. Again, pick everybodys brain to get pointers on how to weld that cartain kind of material. Nobody is born knowing how to weld everything under the sun. There is not a timetable that says you have to weld stainless for x number of years before you get certified on inconel.
The union pays for all my certs and practice when I want to get more. I just get with the training co-ordinator and set up a week or whatever. The only one I had to pay for was my OK steam card but that was before I joined the union. The companies you work for take care of your certs. Everytime you test on a job for something is done for and by the contractor. If you pass, you got that cert but only for said contractor.
On the job training is the best way to go. A class can tell you some things and how to pass a weld test, but, the field is alot different than a classroom. Alot of companies will "grow" their own welders if they can. The limit to new specialties is in what the company does. If they only do carbon, then that's what you'll do. Most companies do alot of different types of steel so you will get a little bit of everything, probly not the super alloys (inconel, monel, hastelloy) though. You can always go to a different company after you have some experience and learn new things.
Welding is welding. It would have some different aspects to it, but alot of it would be the same. Alot of rig welders will work on pipe and when they're home or off work, work on implements or logging equip.
Not alot of discrimination. If you can do the work you're expected to, then you'll have no problems. You've got to be able to take a joke or some ribbing too. A thick skin is a must have in the trade. You screw up or do something stupid, they are gonna give you hell about it. I still get crap from people that I worked with from when I started.
The boss is a foreman. His boss is the general foreman. The GF's boss is the supervisor.
The companies are trying to get by with as much the union will let them. They had the unions by the nuts for years but now they need us bad and if we(the union) are smart, we can get all our conditions back and then some. They have made sweetheart deals with contractors that are coming up for renewal and hopefully our elected officials will remember that we have the upper hand now. There is a strike going on in Las Vegas right now about safety conditions at the City Center because Perini has had 14 or so killed on that project in like two years. So, no, the unions still have alot of rights and power. The going away or getting stronger is something that time will tell. I've seen alot of guys organizing in from the non-union side. It's true that we don't have near the membership that we used to but aint gonna drop off the face of the earth any time soon.
Hope this helps ya out.
TIGHand430...RU in Vegas?? Just wondered. Grew up there. Perini sound familiar. A bad familiar. Never welded then though. Thanks. Steve.
No, back home in Arkansas right now. Buildin a skid for my truck, gettin ready to go out on the REX-east line. Aint never worked for Perini but have friends that did. Said their motto should have been: "Life or limb, the pipe goes in." Guess they wasn't joking. Too bad it took the lives of several tradesmen to get them to get safer.
No doubt. I was just curious. I lived there almost 11 years. Grew up there. Still kinda miss it. I've had some experience with "Vegas construction" When I worked at Circus Circus as a kitchen manager, the contractor doing their remodeling was illegally abating asbestos without containment or Decon procedures. I told safety & almost got fired for it. (I've had prior abatement training) I got cussed out by the safety director who used to be a vegas pig (cop). He was a real piece of work, if you catch my drift. Not too many companies give a rip about someone's life when it comes to getting a hotel up, or the pipe where it needs to be in Vegas.
Anyhoo, just thought I would ask. Good luck on that skid. Be safe out there! Or, at least watch out for the idiots! :-) S.W.
"What Happens In Vegas, Stays In Vegas..." (Ridiculous Television Commercial Regarding Las Vegas.)
Hello brightblue, first off, a hearty welcome to the forum. You certainly have asked a number of questions that most could go on for hours discussing and could also take you in any number of directions concerning different parts of the welding trade and many associated industries. I believe one of your questions was something along the line of, what would it have been nice to know before you pursued a career in welding? I don't necessarily believe that I would try to answer on a specific topic, instead I might answer that question like this; I wish I would have looked to have a better understanding of what was going on around me, been more willing to take a chance on pursuing various opportunities or recognize them as such, given more thought to the complete picture with regard to jobs and all the details that are a part of them, had the ability to recognize those who knew what they were talking about as opposed to those who didn't, shown a level of interest in everything that would have promoted additional learning from the old hands because of the enthusiasm and want to know, I believe you get the picture.
As far as education goes, much of the benefit to formal schooling for welding will be determined by the enthusiasm and abilities of the student and certainly to some degree by the interest and skills of those providing the training. Schooling must be looked at from the perspective of preparation to have a better understanding of safety, forming hand/eye/dexterity skills, basic welding skills, processes, and theory associated with welding. Once schooling has been completed the real job skills and applications start, knowing how to apply welding skills, adapt and function in whatever job area you end up in, understanding and following instruction, using common sense, and always keeping your mind open to continued learning.
Running out of time for now so I'll have to stop at this point, I'll be interested to see some of the other responses to your questions. Best regards, aevald
brightblue: From My point of view, there are 2 clasifications of welders and welding jobs. 1) semi skilled operators 2) skilled trades persons. The semi skilled operators are doing production jobs and earning a living, but if that particular job is no longer available they may have a real hard time finding another. This is NOT the area You want to be working in. As a skilled trades person, You will have to know a whole lot more and be a whole lot better at it, but You are MUCH MORE VALUABLE TO YOUR EMPLOYER AND PAID ACCORDINGLY.
The pipliners, boilermakers, structural welders, ship builders, fabricators and pretty much everyone participating on this site are skilled trades people. Some things are specific to particular areas of these trades, while others they all have in common. Many of the people on this site have worked in several areas of the welding trade.
Apprenticeship is a really good way to learn a trade, as it combines actually working in that trade [and getting paid] and schooling to learn theory. If You can't find an apprenticeship, but can get with a company willing to train You on the job, You can take courses on Your own. You might be able to teach Yourself the theory from books or corospondence courses, this is harder for some than others.
If You take an introductory course in welding before seeking employment You have several advantages. You will have some idea what is going on and will have been taught basic safety procedures. You will know better if this is something You want to do for a living. An employer has the benifit of not haviing to start with a complete greenhorn who may find out in the first day or week that this isn't for them.
Hi Brightblue and again welcome! You have already gotten some great responses from some experts and while I am always learning most everyday, I think I can add some light too.
When you FIRST got into welding, what is the one thing no one told you that you wished you'd known?
Answer: Get a light-weight welding hood. For my first 5 years of welding (out of 23) I had a full size glass, fiberglass hood. This fit great, was comfortable, and I could see well out of it, but I didn't even consider that all that extra weight on my neck could be so painful years later. Now I use a auto darkening, light-weight hood which has saved my career. Back in my 20's when I started out, I was indestructable and a ball of enthusiastic fire, so I didn't know I was hurting myself with the heavy hood. I was 5'-9" and 130lbs.........Now I am 5'-8" and 220lbs.
how a "100%, never been a welder" and knows no tools nor welding terms could pass a test for a welding job.
Answer: You probably won't have a chance of passing any type of welding test, but there are company's which (as mentioned earlier) "Grow" their employees. The unions have good way of training welders & pipefitters. Speaking from the other side (always been non-union) I can tell you that many contractors have welding training programs which produce skilled welders who can "Get-it-Done" with the best of them.......in time. The quality of that training depends on the: individual student, the instructor, the company's efforts to provide that training. I have been a welding instructor for my current employer and have trained some people who now don the hood everyday, at journeyman wages. They produce quality work at the industrial level. As much as I would love to take the credit for these guys (and girls) skills, the Truth is that they all followed a specific program, which required them to perfect each phase of training before they were considered competent to take the weld test which got them certified. It is like anything new, some catch on quicker than others, but it is individual drive and persistences allowed them to succeed.
What is a fair wage for a new welder?
Answer: It depends on what you are going to weld or fabricate. A tube welder working on a powerhouse outage will earn more than a mig welder building dumpsters. Like what was said 9 to 20 an hour depending also where in the USA you are.
Do you think it should be different than the wage of a welder who did go to college to prepare or not?
Answer: Yes, but not by much because experience really makes a person valuable and some will catch on quicker than others despite what kind of training the person has.
How do you go from an apprentice welder to working in other specialities? IOW, say you are a new welder and get [insert special cert]. How long was it before you could actually *work* in that specialty? Do you have to qualify, in terms of x years worked, before you can take further certifications?
Answer: There is usally a learning curve and to be truthful it depends on the company's specific NEED. Some job shops will put a "new" welder with a partner where they are welding the same thing and they hope the green kid will pick up the quality & speed needed to be competitive. The Trade of welding is expensive and all company's are trying to make money, so IF a green welder is slow, but his/her quality is good, a company will let them continue doing the job and give pointers to pick-up speed while keeping quality at the acceptable level. IF the green welder is fast, but you have to send them back to fix a part which doesn't look right.............chances are you won't be doing that job long imo. Certifications depend on what the need is. As mentioned before, there is no point of certifying everyone (a crew of 10 welders) on say welding innconnel, when you only need 2 people to do it.
Did you pursue your certifications on your own and pay for them or did your company?
Answer: I bought my first couple of certs (having only trade school experience at that time) to make prospective employers interested in me.
I have had as many as 17 certifications for one company and they paid for all of them. When you work for a piping company, you have to be ASME certified, and it is the burden of the company to prove that you can weld to a certain code (ASME, API or the like). They own your cert (technically), but it is still your unique welder I.D. which goes next to the joint YOU welded.
does it limit new opportunities to specalize or are the odds the same as if you'd gone to a college welders course ( I mean for newbies )?
Answer: IMO there are not as many college trained or otherwise welders coming in to the field. It depends on the company.
I don't know what you are talking about in regards to freighters, but I close with this: Welding is a diversified trade and you really have to investigate what you'd like to be welding. I would suggest approaching someone near you who welds and maybe has the equipment to show you and give you a taste of it. IT is NOT for everybody. You either like it or you don't. You can make alot of money depending on what specialty or market you get into. IMO, welding pipe pays more than welding structural steel. IF you think you'd like to travel abit, then get into pipe and do it. IF you like the security of being home every night, you are limited to ship yards or tank manufacturers or Fab-shops. They do not pay as much (usually) but you can still do quite well financially if you find the right job.
I'd like to extend my appreciation to all of you who took the time to reply to my questions with so much patience and information. Thank you! I'm still digesting the answers, so please don't be surprised if you find they generate more from me lol
"I don't know what you are talking about in regards to freighters," - Sorry, this was my nieve wording in an attempt to reference, gauging from your answer, shipyard welding (?). In my head, I was picturing what any outsider might. A welder hanging on the outside of a freighters hull, mask down, sparks flying.
I do have one question right now and it is kind of tied to some of the stories I've been reading about the shortage of welders. Given that the ranks maybe aren't swelling as fast as some companies might need, does that mean older welders are still 'viable' in thier careers and still able to get work without running up against age discrimination?
My apologies to everyone if I'm coming off as some sort of Quiz Master lol. But I'm interested and trying to really think clearly about this as a potential career. If I can find a welder locally who will let me watch or show me stuff in person, that might happen but otherwise I'm pretty much considering a local community college. I'm slightly tentative as I've never welded before in my life and kind of don't want to just jump into the expenses of a course right away till I can be reasonably sure it's something I want to do, can do, and would be good at.
Thanks again!! :)
Brightblue, I don't weld for a living, and it was never My primary job, just a part of it. Presently I have some health issues, and I do mechanical repairs that often involve welding, and small fabrication jobs in a shop at home. The other folks can tell You better about being a welder for a living. With regard to getting some experience, You might take a welding course at night at a VoTec school if there is one in Your area. It won't cost much, or commit a lot of Your time, but You can get a little experience to make Your decisions from.
Hello Bright blue,
I think I might be in the minority of welders here, but I can relate to you. I grew up in Suburban Ann arbor and was never a mechanically inclined youth. I was expected to goto University of Michigan or another big name school for a 4 year degree. Instead on a whim I took a welding class while I was in high school at my local community college. I then went on and got a 2 year degree in welding and fabrication, along the way I've worked several of the lower skilled lower paying part-time jobs;
I've worked for 2 metal artist (prepped her metal did all her welding)(prepped his metal, did flame colouring... he used to work as a pipe welder at the south pole helped construct the dome they had there)
worked at a stainless steel resturaunt appliance company (sheet metal fusing, general fab)
worked at my present job which shall remain nameless (sheet metal and superalloy, plus general fab)
as of now I'm working as a welding engineering intern at a company that hired me on as a entry level welder (I convinced them i was more useful in the engineering department). School is a good route at the very least if you want to find if it's right for you and if you like it. I went into school not owning any equipment and came out with a toolbox full of tools of the trade that I know how to use, I even made the toolbox (which got me a job, but that's another story)
That being said, the quality of education is largely dependent on you and to a degree the school. I'm proud to say I went to the #1 ranked welding school in the nation and they really gave us the heat about producing good quality welds and taught us how to weld on a wealth of metals in every common process (SAW,OFW,GTAW,GMAW,FCAW,SMAW) I've taken and passed a cert test on most of those processes. I'll say this, now adays certs don't transfer from my understanding. I've held(they expired) several certs and I have confidence that I could pass most GTAW certs etc, but if I went to a job today they would be requiring me to retake any cert that was applicable plus any internal test they have.
schooling doesn't totally prepare you for the work force... The first time you have to wiggle inbetween pipes welding with a mirror, or the first time you sit and weld 100 widgets until you're hands cramp up, you'll long for the day of sitting in your school both for a 2 hour class welding flat. I hope that doesn't sound discouraging some of my favourite moments where beginning the day with a pallet of cut metal and some prints and ending the day with a completed unit.
In general now adays people don't give you heat about stuff, I know several female welders. I'm african american and it's never been an issue at a job site. Bosses respect hard workers and no one likes a jerk. If you're helpful work hard and keep your head low, people will usually return the favour.
My education will get me in the door right now, I can goto a job site proove I can read prints, measure things, know how to keep metal in square. I've taken some first day cert tests and passed (not all jobs require a first day cert test). However every job I've worked on they stick you on the entry level work until you proove your worth, if I joined a union I would be forced to go through the apprenticeship program. If I became a pipeliner I would have to be a helper for awhile and practice up on my SMAW
I think either approach is valid depends on your situation, you learn a lot working on the job, but a 4 year, 2 year degree ,or 1 year cert will get your feet wet and give you a leg up on your first job. My path is different I'm coming down the home stretch on a 4 year degree and I'm most likely gonna jump in as a foreman or pencil pusher above the muck. I value my education but nowadays unions and companies seem to be taking people on and paying for their education... I wish someone would pay for my school.
In the heavy construction sector where I dwell, quality is a must! From what I have seen........there are not many who are from tech school to the field. That being said, "seasoned" (NOT old) hands (welders) are in demand. IF a welder comes in and welds up a carbon & stainless steel pipe coupon required for the pipe welder position, he/she goes right to work. It doesn't matter really what age they are because the employer knows the welder will do the job. With younger people......(and a shakey test piece) you just don't know.
The questions that youve asked have been far more than answered by some of the veterans in this forum. im sure youll find what you need. best of luck to you
"The questions that youve asked have been far more than answered by some of the veterans in this forum."
Is this your less-than-subtle way of suggesting I stop asking questions? LOL
I wouldn't take that the way you took it....;-) I don't think it was a dig at you.
He is suggesting that you make use of the search function, as those roads are well travelled and if you still have questions, by all means please ask. .....many of us are busy and are on the job(don't tell the boss) and are just looking in on the forum when we get between inspections, and simply don't have time to type out the same thing over and over.
Nothing to be upset or offended by. We enjoy talking about all things "welded"....LOL
Thanks jw, but I wasn't offended. Just kidding around really. As I'd stated previously, I had used the Search feature but nothing explicitly relevant to the questions I was asking came up. Maybe I used the wrong terms. I AM going through the various threads and such as I can, be assured of that. I've also looked at many of welding specific sites that members here have posted up.
Thank you for your informative post Lawrence. It was helpful hearing an instructors perspective too and answered some of the things I've been wondering about.
Have you tried differant variations of key word. I have found that just keyword placement will bring up differant results concerning my search criteria.
example-
welding A36
A36 welding
can I weld A36
A36 weldability
weldability of A36
A36 weld
A36 welding
jrw159
BrightBlue!
I teach at a tech college in the Midwest and in my region age is not a factor for discrimination, infact it is exactly the opposit!
Employers want grown ups! People who understand that it is important to:
1. Show up to work on time
2. Communicate.. This means understanding instructions and not being shy about asking questions.
3. Be drug free
4. Be willing to work under authority and in a team.
5... Only way down here do they start asking about skills.
I had a several students in my program last year over the age of 35.. Long before graduation their was a vicious dog fight/bidding war between employers specifically to get their hands on these more mature students... The need for welders is so urgent in our area that employers are on the phone daily asking about how the class is going and if anybody is left to hire and who they might be able to steal away from somebody else. Entry wages have been driven up over $3 per hour in the last 4 years with paid internships and course reimbursements being offered in order to snag students before they graduate.
When employers call the week after graduation looking for workers, for the last 3 years I've had to tell them.. "Sorry they're already gone!"
Your college degree may not get you money right off the bat... But your EDUCATION will become evident as your abilities to use math to fabricate, use high level cognative skills to interpret instructions and procedures and your maturity demonstrates itself in troubleshooting and teamwork.. If you choose the manufacturing or fabrication sector your education may give you a leg up on lead/supervisory positions down the road... Companies love to have educated workers who they can promote from within... Educated people with real floor experience generally make better decision makers than folks with just one or the other.
Good emplolyers aren't scared to give a raise to somebody who is making them money!
There is nothing wrong with an interview strategy that includes things like making an initial consession on starting wage with the provision that your performance will be reviewed monthly or every 6 weeks and raises be given as merited... This is a common practice in the manufacturing and fabrication world. Not every employer is wise enough to adopt this strategy... But the ones worth staying with are :)
Don't stop asking questions.... Why do you think we bother to come to this forum! For what ever reason, each of us enjoy helping folks who are looking for a leg up or in some other way striving for excellence.
welcome to AWS
let me just say that sometimes you can get a machine that will not weld for a plug nickel and some machines welds great and if you are going to get your own rig going take the machine to someone you trust and have them check it out befor you perches it. good luck and never stop asking
Hi all,
I'm going to the local comm college to me ( I'm in NC btw ) and found it through the AWS site. The welding staff have emails so I'm going to be asking them
a couple of quesitons too ;). I have an appt set up with a counselor this week to get some of the admin stuff sorted out because I have previous college credits.
I think the Applied Sciences - Welding has it set up where you can either get a diploma or a cert. I'm cynical about colleges and worry the diploma path is just
a money generating thing for the college. The welding curriculum even has a list of companies that grant scholarships so I'll see if I meet the criteria to help
offset some of the costs, though most scholarship money is only for degree seeking students.
I am curious about something: Can you join a union if you're just a student?
And Lawrence, how did your students find out about the jobs/paid internships they'd eventually take? Did you tell them when the companies called you?
Probly not. When you join a union starting off, you'll have to go through an apprenticeship for 5 years. That is your schooling. You work during the day and go to school at nights. You can get in after you've finished school. You might not be a journeyman right off, but they'll give you credits for what you know and your weld tests.
Bright B,
The diploma path *generally* includes things like blueprint reading, fabrication, shop math, and communications. These classes are valuable, especially for older students who may need to brush up on tools they haven't used for a few years and also for some younger students who maybe were not so motivated in high school. Many employers prefer the diploma for those reasons.
The certificate pathway *generally* is one that will be more strictly limited to lab time. This is good for welders who know one process but want to learn another,or learners who have a particular job in mind and want to focus on a single process in order to get into the market quickly or folks who have only enough time or money for one or two classes at a time.
As for my students who find jobs during school.. Some pound the pavement themselves. But when an employer comes with a need I usually ask them to make a flyer that I can post so that everybody has a fair shot to compete. (just like the real world eh?) I'm only selective about letters of recommendation.
Some union apprenticeships are compettitive.. and having a school experience can put you in front of folks on that list they may have been waiting much longer than you. Some unions will have a test, judge your resume' and have a face to face interview. They will score each and that his how they determine who is on top of the list. *If* the union has a high opinion of your school it can be a big help.
Can you join a union while you are a student...? Well you can begin the application process for an apprenticeship.. This is about the only situation where I have encouraged a student to drop one of my classes... The 5 year apprenticeship model for the pipe trades in our region is so excellent that if they are willing to put one of my students to work, I encourage them to take that offer very seriously. It doesn't happen often. Most of the time the union is satisfied to let them finish the college course and then they have an apprentice that they can take right off and begin more advanced training which is beyond the scope of what I offer.
Thank you Lawrence.
I contacted the head of the department where I *might* attend and he said they don't provide any equipment. Drag. He said he hands out an equipment list of companies that give student discounts the first day of class and the stuff can go from $100 - 400 depending on the quality. I was kind of hoping they'd provide that but glad I found out now about it. He also said scholarships are only for full-time students but I'd bet the funds just cover the costs of the classes and no more, which would make holding a full time job on top of it awfully difficult. Why do schools do this? Why can't a part-time student get scholarship or grant money? The hardest part about going to college is getting INTO it, argh! lol sorry for the rant...
I'm still not sure I understand how people get into a union. What if you've been working as a non-union welder for a few years, do you just apply or do you have to know someone who gives you the secret handshake? lol ( no offense intended btw ).
About scholarships, make sure you talk to a counselor and not just faculty. I noted from another thread that you are female, and that fact might open doors to a bit of non traditional worker grant funding...
Craftspeople always choose their own hand tools. Thats just the way it goes... But do start to build your supply. Garage sales are a great place to find wrenches etc. for pennies.
The reason for the tool list is that when you finish schooling you will go to work, and nothing makes a worse impression than a worker asking to borrow tools on the first day at the job :)
Hello brightblue, Lawrence has given you some valuable insight into the workings of school systems. I might add just a little bit more to go along with it. Many of the federally funded programs will allow for funding based on less than full-time status. You are allowed to come in as full-time, 3/4 time, and even 1/2 time. Which of these you qualify under will determine the amount of the funding that you will receive but won't necessarily require you to be a full-time student. Scholarships can work in a similar manner, as Lawrence alluded to, being a female may qualify you for specific scholarships depending upon the various donor's criteria or you may qualify for others by simply meeting the specifics required by them such as grade point, financial need, geographical area, areas of study, and other sorts of criteria. Sometimes these scholarships are directed toward a specific area of study, meaning they may only be for welding students. These might also be allowed for part-time as well as full-time students, this is up to the donors in many cases. If you happen to be a single parent raising a child or children and working full-time there are other financial aid opportunities that are directed specifically towards these situations. It would certainly be in your interest to make an appointment with the financial aid director of the college that you are interested in and explore "ALL" of your options.
I don't know that this applies to your geographical area, but in my area there is an organization referred to as "CAP" (community action program), they also aid individuals with their educational goals, so possibly check with the local area chamber of commerce and see if anything like this exists in your area. The key here is to look into all of the avenues that are available out there to help you with your goals. In a case such as this, knowledge is power, but you may have to initiate the necessary searches and research to know about all of the different opportunities out there. Good luck on your future plans and certainly continue to be a part of the forum in the process and let us know how it's going. Best regards, aevald
Thanks so much Lawrence and aevlad, I really appreciate your advice!! It's very helpful and you bet I'll look into it. It's good to know that maybe I could do this half time while working. I fully plan on being in the Financial Aid office but hadn't known about possibilities through the chamber of commerce. I don't have any dependents except my very furry son ( aka 'a dog' ). I'm in North Carolina btw, about 30min outside of Raliegh but I'm already kind of figuring we might have to move and that's OK. Do any welders use conversion vans or tow little trailer homes behind them to stay in? How about pitching a tent on site? Is that frowned on? <<grin>>
DON'T, I repeat DON'T look for a welding job in Michigan. NOT Unless it's union & secure. Hack-Master, Junk Iron welding is the mainstay here. 80+ hours a week, no security & you'll be fired if you work too slow & do a good job, Sorry if I'm a little Jaded! Just been there. Done that! Lots of good, very edujmacated, excellent folks to help out here & answer questions. You have already heard from just a few. (Myself not included! lol :-)) Just do a little looking around & read some prior threads, you'll find what you're looking for! Tuff skin here, a must. No one's nasty though. Well.......Anyways, feel free to talk anytime! You Have a good sense of humor! (Brad Pitt!!) Good luck! S.W.
"Not in here, mister...This is a Mercedes!" (Dot Matrix to Barf, Spaceballs)
Another thought.....What part of NC are you in? I ask this because there are AWS Sections that meet monthly and is a good way to get your face in front of some folks who attend and participate in the Section meetings. Networking, so to speak with these folks may help get your foot in the door somewhere. Also several of the local community colleges have welding instructors who attend the meetings and know people who are in need of welders or can help direct you to some grants/programs. Our local Section has helped HS students with books and supplies for college before, so maybe a Section that is local to you will have similar programs in place. We had winners from local HS welding competitions held by our Section and the winners received checks written to the college in their name for books and supplies. The diploma or certification program at the college will help an employer judge whether or not to take a chance on hiring, could give you a foot in the door somewhere. I know before I finished my courses in HVAC, I had several places calling me and wanted to put me to work...so keep working on it...
Sorry, this thread is getting really long lol
My news today wasn't so great. It's not horrible, but not great either. I have missed the financial aid cutoff for this semester. So to take the course it would be all out of pocket.
This semester is 14 credit hours and precede the next level of courses. They do not offer them again next semester, so there's no option of going half time. I have to take them all. The reason is that if I don't and I wait till they roll around again *the next Fall*, it will take two years to complete what amounts to two semesters. That's no kind of option in my book.
I got the impression from the counselor she didn't think I was making the best use of my time or previous education pursuing this, though once she saw I was more than casually interested she was very helpful. But I do think they want to keep you in school and then move you to a university who will try to keep you in school too LOL Meanwhile, everything you're learning is theory instead of work produced. I'd want to work and soon, not sit around writing papers and taking tests for two more years for teachers who have already seen thousands of papers lol
Does anyone else get the impression, directly or indirectly, that the Applied Sciences are not very valued by colleges, maybe even society as a whole? I just realized today that my old college didn't even HAVE an applied sciences department. Everything was health/business/computer science oriented.
Business is flogging universities for not supplying enough material science grads and engineers
Hello again brightblue, do you only have one choice of schools in your area? If so I can see where you are up against one of the variations of education that frustrates so many. The school that I teach at is an open entry/open exit format. We can take on students at almost any point in time and all of our program classes are taught every quarter(we operate fall, winter, spring, and summer) with the exception of blueprint reading and our theory and fabrication classes which are only offered once a year. We also serve students that are 2 year degree bound, 1 year certificate oriented, industry upgrade tracked, supplemental welding to other degree tracks(automotive, diesel heavy/equipment, machine shop, millwrighting, instrumentation), or personal or artistic enrichment. The way which we take on students during the quarter at different times is by using the possible lab hours that they can complete in that quarter and assigning a credit value to those hours and registering them according to those credit/hour equivalencies, we also use skills charts to track their progress in specific processes and areas. There are other schools in my area that operate more like the one you are describing, and to be honest I don't know how they can do it other than to say that they might be the only choice for those near to them and they may also have enough folks that don't have other choices that it allows them to continue to operate in that manner.
Are there any vocational training centers that possibly serve your area? These are slightly different than the community college set-ups and some areas have these to serve a number of different highschools or middle schools as well as folks such as yourself who might be looking for some specific training.
You questioned whether colleges valued applied sciences degrees, many times colleges(I am referring to 4-year institutions) aren't very receptive of the 2-year degrees because they have essentially lost out on the freshman and sophmore years of particular degrees that they are offering. This may not always be the case but it can certainly factor in. Many who go the 2-year route and then go on to 4-year instituitions actually are more successful due to the more personalized attention that they received at their 2-year schools. As Lawrence stressed to you somewhat, any schooling, whether it be in the area of the trades that you are entering or not, will generally work favorably for you because it shows commitment and the ability to follow through with that commitment. So whether you end up applying for an apprenticeship or applying directly with an employer the schooling that you possess will make a difference. Some give it more weight than others. A little bit more for you to consider. Best regards, aevald
Hi aevald,
I only have two options:
One is 39 semester hours and one is 35...that's for me though, because I already have english and math done so for someone who doesn't, they'd both be more...and the one with 39 hrs is because they include a Certifications Practice class at the very end.
But, they both do the same thing in terms of how courses are offered...e.g., SMAW(Stick) Plate is offered ONLY in the Fall...if you miss it, you have to wait till next Fall to take it...i think part of it too is because the teachers would be overwhelmed otherwise...
So, if you don't shoot through these semesters head on, straight through, I could see where it would take quite a while to get it done...my worry is that my first school of choice means 14hrs this semester, 17 the next ( ye gads ),and 8 in summer...it is a very daunting idea to me because, as I understood things based on my previous college experience...12 hrs is considered full time...14 is hanging your toes off the cliff, and 17 is the weight that pushes you over it where your sanity is irretrievably broken LOL
But maybe 17 hrs of welding courses is different than 17 hrs of Biology, A&P, Chemistry, Physics, Speech, labs etc etc...I don't know...is it? Is it reasonably possible to take all those welding courses and *still excel* in them? I wouldn't want to just barely get by.
Hello again brightblue, your question could depend a bit on how much these credits are based on Lab or Lecture. The academic classes that you spoke of are certainly lecture for the most part and high credit loads in those areas can mean disaster for many. Considering welding classes where a fair majority of the credits are derived from Lab applications isn't nearly as daunting because you are applying a great amount of your time directly towards achieving proficiency in a particular skill area. There are still book oriented items that need to be dealt with in welding, but if you had say a 10 credit welding class with it's required homework and compared it to a 10 credit load of an English and Math class with the homework for those two classes you would likely have much less studying and research to complete for the welding class. Hope this explanation has helped some. Best regards, aevald
Schools don't seem to be pushing anything trade related. Alot of the teachers think that we're a bunch of uneducated rednecks. That's why, I think, that there is such a shortage of welders and QCs. When I was graduating high school, not one of the counselors said anything about a trade school or anything like that. They were pushing computer technology to everyone that would listen. Don't get me wrong, an education is a great thing to have, but college aint for everybody. I tried it and found out after one semester I couldn't stand it. Luckily my high school had an industrial tech class. Got to weld and learn how to machine stuff. Too bad they did away with it two years later. Made the shop into a computer lab. Alot of people are ignorant of what we do and how much we know. They think we can't even think for ourselves. Do what ya got to to take the classes. No matter how much it costs, it'd be well worth it. I'm sure you could probably get a student loan from a bank somewhere. Hope all works out for ya.
Hi tighand,
You wrote a lot of things I have thought myself. I've been on both sides of the collar colored fence ( blue and white ). I do agree with you that skilled tradesmen or the skilled trades themselves are barely thought of in academia anymore. I'm sure tons of things influence that. The messages kids get from all directions is,"Be a Market Anaylst, be a Lawyer, be a Doctor, be a Nurse..." and those are great but not all kids are wired for that, nor should they be.
There are many, many pro's for pursuing the skilled trades and they're not mentioned very much. But I think what we're seeing kind of world wide for the last couple of decades, maybe more intensely the last ten years or so, is something called 'academic inflation'. This is no original thought of mine, btw. In the 60's, someone with a BA or BS was a big deal. That paper had real value because few people had the luxury of going to college. Then more people went after them. So a Master's was a big deal, etc etc. Pretty soon, there will be more PhD'd students than ever in history. Many companies are complaining that recent grads feel instantly entitled to raises, are easily frustrated, do not have creative thought processes and are so risk averse they do their job just enough not to make waves, if that. Kids have, unfortunately, been taught to fear failure rather than understand for every thousand great ideas, maybe two of them are workable. But often, you can't get to those two without failing first.
A lot of kids really good with their hands, who really enjoy being able to SEE the result of their efforts, are diverted to becoming left brain heavy. The computer and business sciences were and still are heavily pushed to them as you've mentioned.
Being able to produce something immediately useful with a hammer and nails or fire and metal is, at least the produced item(s), appreciable to the builder and the user. And often, it's beautiful too. What intelligent person could look down their nose at that? No truly intelligent person could. Even not understanding everything you know, someone with intelligence would appreciate your work. Write off as pitiable anyone who thinks they are 'better' because they work in a cubefarm.
BTW, I was one of those computer geeks. And I have to confess I never wrote one line of code that seemed to make a damn bit of difference to anybody LOL Thank you very much for your encouragement, I appreciate it :)
>When you FIRST got into welding, what is the one thing no one told you that you wished you'd known? How bad this job sucks!!! LOL No seriously.. Not that I wasnt told but rather the fact that I didnt listen. Please take welding safety very seriously; proper eyewear, clothing, current and electrical hazards etc.
http://www.pp.okstate.edu/ehs/links/welding.htm>If someone goes to a tech school and gets their AWS course done, then goes to apply for a welding job, I've read here you still have to 'test' for the job wether you're a 100% rookie or not. I'm curious as to how a "100%, never been a welder" and knows no tools nor welding terms could pass a test for a welding job.
Dont worry about certs gets experience. I used to teach an adult ed welding program and everyone was stuck on getting their certs. I can teach a monkey to do the same thing over and over. Get as much experience as you can with all types of welding and fab. Remember versatility is key in this trade.
>How do you go from an apprentice welder to working in other specialities? IOW, say you are a new welder and get [insert special cert]. How long was it before you could actually *work* in that specialty? Do you have to qualify, in terms of x years worked, before you can take further certifications?
Get Experience, Certs will come
Thanks for that link wolf! After reading that you bet I'll take it seriously! lol
After an unsually clunky metriculation process, my Applied Sciences advisor came through like a monumental champ and I'm now signed up for my first full semester in welding! Thanks to everyone for being so helpful and willing to share their experience.
have fun! ask as many questions as you can, people will often teach you things you can find in no book if you ask and are willing to learn.
Thanks for that advice and I agree whole heartedly. Asking questions and curiosity are a big part of my personality and I am looking forward to learning everything I can :)
I am not a welder per se, I am from the "dark side", aka CWI. I think it is great that you are passionate about learning and working in welding. I cannot give advice about welding equipment, sorry. I will say that if you are comfortable with yourself, mellow, able to handle getting dirty and a hard worker, you will be fine. I have been working in some variation of inspection (construction, evironmental...) for over 9 years. I enjoy my work and love the trades. Always learn and take pride in yourself and your work. I would think NC would have opportunities along the coast. If you can stand heat, consider Texas or Louisana. I am not from that area, I live in Chicagoland and going crazy from work. Welcome to AWS!
Thanks for your positive reply soilschick, I appreciate it :)
you want my advice... forget welding school... find a job as a helper, you can start with some decent pay and you don't have to worry about learning crap you don't need. in my opinion its the best way to learn...thats assuming you want to pipe weld as thats sort of the only field i can advise on. also its much faster than school, most welders are more than happy to pass on their knowledge and you can be ready to get started in a few short months. i'm 21 and have been welding for 3 years, i learned straight out of high school in 3 months i passed a 6g 3in test and had saved enough money as a helper to buy most of the needed equipment. Good luck and welcome to the field.
also, when you make it don't be a pain in the a$$ like a lot of welders i see...it gives us a bad name and inspectors, foremen, etc that see a welder with solid work ethic will appreciate that and generally take that over a more experienced "whiny" welder.
Hi Maui,
Well, I'm kind of already enrolled in school and it starts shortly. I live in North Carolina and currently know very little about the field. Seems like mostly around here the jobs are at places like John Deere and Apex Steel, places like that. Now I'm not 100% certain, but I think the welders at these places do mostly production work and make, at most, $14/hr for MIG and 17/hr for TIG to start. I'm not sure if this kind of work would need welders helpers or not, do you? I do know that the local places scoop up students out of the school I"m going to by the time they've finished their first semester. So, the school has a hard time keeping students all the way through the diploma program and they're being hired as welders, not helpers. And I'm not saying being a welders helper is in any way bad. Quite the opposite. If I knew an experienced welder who didn't mind mentoring someone that would be great and I kind of hope that's always an option because there will always be someone who knows way more than me, but for now I kind of want to go through the curriculum for now because I've never even 'pulled a trigger' LOL
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