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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Welding certs, and expiration?
- - By flamin (**) Date 07-23-2008 20:18
Good day all-

I was wondering what method(s) you all use to keep track of welders certifications, not as CWI/s but as a QC person. I am now responsibe for this task (as the shop foreman) and I have just recieved several WPS's and PQR's in a large binder that our compnay has been holding onto for about 5 years or so. It doesn't seem that there has been any formal method of keeping track of this, other than just putting everything in this big binder, so I'm concerned that some of our welders certifications may have expired. I would like to get everything back on track and up to date as soon as possible, but with so many different dates and certs to look through, seems like it could be a fairly daunting task without some way of organization. Once I get everything back up to speed, I want to be able to keep track of when these certifications were qualified and when they will expire, so that we can take measures to prevent this from happening again. Any suggestions, opinions, advice on this matter, I would appreciate.

Thanks
Jason
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-23-2008 20:29
All you have to worry about essentially is that you witness them using the process for which they were qualified. Put em all on the same date as much as possible. If you have one guy you see as needing continuity, record witnessing them all and then your system will be homogenized. Each time you qualify a new guy record his continuity when you record all of them. Don't wait for just before his expiration.
Its a little more difficult with multiple processes and alloys and rapid employee turnover and such but it still makes it a lot easier.
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 07-23-2008 20:44
Thanks js55

So should I be keeping dated records of when I witness the procedures? Does it have to formally documented, or is my word good enough. I would like to think that my word would be adequate, but having some kind of documention would be easier (for me) to keep track, I think, plus I think it would more legitimate.

Jason
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 07-23-2008 21:01
Once a welder is qualified using a procedure he is essentially qualified for all weld procedures as long as the production weld is within the limits of the required performance variables, so don't worry about the procedures. And yes, you do need to document for auditing sake, or in my case, memory sake. Auditors need verification. They're generlly quite untrusting people. Just kidding.
Parent - - By SammyShine (**) Date 07-23-2008 22:30
Ha Ha...Auditors are untrusting people.

Is it that they are untrusting or do a lot of people try to lie :-)

I think it's a little of both.
Parent - - By MBSims (****) Date 07-23-2008 22:46 Edited 07-23-2008 23:01
Auditors are looking for "objective evidence of quality".  This means documentation.  It's not that they are untrusting or a lot of people lie.  A verbal statement that the welder continuity was witnessed at specified intervals just doesn't provide evidence of quality.  Some type of log or form listing the welder's names, welding process, date witnessed and the new expiration date would be enough.
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 07-24-2008 00:23
Thanks for the input guys-

Well I'm in now means trying to sneak anything through the system, in fact, I want to make everything I possibly can black and white, without any doubt. As MBSims mentioned, a log of some sort sounds reasonable. Along with the names, process, and dates, would I need to reference the PQR or WPS it is associated with somehow, would I need to list one, or the other, or both? And, would a single log entry per qualification within the six month effective period be sufficient documention? Again, I'm just trying to get some ideas to work with here. Thanks again.

Jason
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 07-24-2008 00:35
Jason

Most continuity logs simply record the welder (name and/or ID), the process and the date you observed them using that process - no more, no less. Keep it simple.

The AWS D1.1 and D1.5 codes are practically verbatim when it comes to the "period of effectiveness" for the welder, welding operator and tack welders.

I have seen some shops use one log to record all of their welders' continuity for each process used in the shop which then satisfies multiple codes...very easy to keep track of the welder's continuity.

I do not believe the AWS D1.1 or D1.5 requires a record of continuity.

Several certification bodies do, however, require such a log. A construction attorney once told me that in a court of law the reasoning is that if there is no record it didn't happen. That might be good or bad couldn't it?

Hope this helps a little.

ziggy
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-24-2008 01:40
Flamin,
A lot of it will depend on the type of work you are doing. Do you have NDE / NDT performed on any work ?
A good way of keeping track is make a little area on the side of their WQT certificate for various types of inspection.
If they have RT performed on their work fill in the top box with RT 23/07/08. The same applies to UT,MT,PT or VT. You can update these boxes at whatever intervals you like but I try and do it before six months are up and that way I have written proof that they have been using the process and also traceability if required back to when their last NDE/NDT test was done.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-24-2008 10:26
"Ha Ha...Auditors are untrusting people."-quote

Sammy, I can't help but chuckle just a bit while reading this one......if you only knew who you were conversing with in this thread, it might make you chuckle too.....LOL
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 07-24-2008 11:57 Edited 07-24-2008 13:59
Thanks for the tips, now I have something I can work with here.

Jason

EDIT: After doing some research, I found we now have about a dozen PQR's that are no good due to inactivity. Now it's going to be quite expensive (for our company) to requalify everything. Looks like I got my work cut out.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 07-24-2008 15:14
why would your PQR's be no good? A PQR doesnt expire, only the welder qualification would expire if the welder doesnt weld in the process he is qualified for. (or have I misunderstood something)
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 07-24-2008 15:44
ctacker

Yes, you are right, that is what I should have said, my mistake.

Jason
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-24-2008 14:14
LOL :-) Chuckle chuckle

jrw159
Parent - - By SammyShine (**) Date 07-24-2008 16:56
"Sammy, I can't help but chuckle just a bit while reading this one......if you only knew who you were conversing with in this thread, it might make you chuckle too.....LOL "

OK, jwright650, I give. Who am I conversing with??

Do tell.

You wouldn't be an auditor would you ;-)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-24-2008 17:04
no, I wasn't speaking of me........LOL
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 07-24-2008 17:09
Not me.
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 07-24-2008 17:22
Jason,
The only time I am aware of that a WPS expire's is because of D1.5 Bridge code.  I know this because we inadvertantly got an CAR on our AISC audit last year because we wasn't aware bridge fabricators had to renew their WPS's every three years.  We were bridge certified, but had never done one, and although I had the bridge code, I never had much reason to get into it so I didn't know that.  hence I learned the hard way. D1,1 WPs's don't expire.

D1.1 does require you to keep some type of continuity record on file.

I have approx. 75 individual welders(people not machines) I have to keep their certs active.  The system we have set up is just a simple excel spreadsheet with name, process, position, date of certification, and re-qualification date (which is six months from their date of certification).
At the beginning of each month I go through it and highlight which guys are coming up this month, print it out, and check it periodically to see who's due day to day.  Then that day, watch them weld with that process, document it and put it in the file.  I have had that audited and checked on occasion.
Chris
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 07-24-2008 17:31
eekpod

That is what I was wanting to know, thanks you. I don't have nearly 75 employees to keep track of, only 21, but if that system works for you, I should be able to apply in my situation.

Jason
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 07-24-2008 17:58
I think NY in the bridge industry requires new PQRs every 7 years.
MDK
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 07-24-2008 19:56
NY requires "verification testing" every 3 years.

Hg
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 07-25-2008 11:36
I Knew it was something like that, don't they have their own steel construction manual too?
Parent - - By HgTX (***) Date 07-25-2008 15:47
Indeed they do.  It's the basis for D1.5.  I always think it's funny how they basically wrote D1.5 but they won't adopt it.  We've already argued about that in another thread so I'm not going to get into the details.

Hg
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 07-25-2008 15:55
5 years ago I worked for a bridge bearing company and I would set up inspections and compile WPS Paint Procedures certs ECT for NY and I can remember how the prints and contract #s from our engineers would always lack the information we needed to contact the proper authority for shop inspection, as I remember the was NY DOT NY port authority and then I think it was NY thruway, and each group had their own procedures.
MDK
Parent - By James Corbin (**) Date 07-25-2008 16:12
FYI if my memory serves me correct the D1.5-02 requires a PQR to expire every 5 years unless the PQR is to section 12, Fracture Critical, then its 3 years. As a side note a weldor is required by section 12 to test with both RT and Bends every year and under the rest of this code its only one, RT or Bends. I don't have a current copy to check for changes.

Just for clarification I use Old School spelling, i.e. - a weldor is a person and a welder is a machine. Your spell check will not like it but it gets the point accross.
Parent - - By ziggy (**) Date 07-25-2008 20:35
John

Here is a line for the next auditor that shows up at your shop...

"I want to help you out....which way did you come in?"

ziggy
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 07-25-2008 20:37
That ain't right.............lol!
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-28-2008 11:16
LOL...good one ziggy, I will file that away for future reference ;-)
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Welding certs, and expiration?

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