I'm done!

By Jenn

Date 07-24-2008 18:18

Congrats! :) :)

I can understand the broke student thing for sure!!!! Don't worry, we won't be there forever!

By OBEWAN

Date 07-24-2008 18:28

I don't think you can put a low dollar value on the experience, but $8.50 an hour is pretty unfair for engineering work. I mean, when I was in school over 10 years ago working as a CAD draftsman, they paid me $13.50. Heck, when I was a welding engineering technology freshman way back in 1979, I worked a summer as a welder at $8.50. I think some companies are more generous than others when it comes to interns - especially if they want to hire them full time after graduation. But you know the saying, "what goes around, comes around", so you will soon get your just due when you graduate. Good luck in school.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-08-2008 06:04

yah that's what I said, I managed to up it to 12.50, but I could go out into a shop hitting the trigger on a mig welder and make more money. Ahh well I just have to sweat it out one more year and I'll be on the high road. I think I'm doing better than most I'll have a very small debt at the end of college.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 07-25-2008 00:18

Good for you!

This topic interest me because of my 19 month old son. He is drawn to the light, as is his daddy. It's not hard to notice.

My wife asked me what I was gonna do if he pursued a welding/fabricating career like I did. I told her "no way"!

My Thinking is this: There are so many engineers out there that really have no hands on experience, it's rediculous. If I want my kid to excell and make the big bucks, he's gonna go out with me and see what it's like to read blueprints from an educated idiot and still make it work.

He will see what it's like to be hands on in the trenches, and understand the things that a lot of educated engineers do not. That's what millionaires are made of; the ability to see both sides, and offer a feasible solution..........shoot, maybe he will decide to be a hair dresser tho! lol.

By Blackf350 Date 07-25-2008 04:47

[deleted]

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 07-25-2008 13:48 Edited 07-25-2008 13:53

BUT BUT BUT "Catia says it works" so therefore you must be doing something wrong!!!! I hear this on a regular basis. I just tell them to pull a tape on any two airframes out there and show me two that are close....get your processes in line before you hail the almighty cad program as the be all end all. I agree, one of my FAVORITE people at work is an engineer that worked the floor and worked his way through school, he has common sense and has not been educated beyond his intelligence.

Metarinka I worked thru my measily degree and I admire anyone that pushes themselves to better themselves and get it done. I hope it changes your life for the good and helps you reach out to others to give them opportunities. Good luck with your studies and remember well you are investing in yourself and those you care about with the late nights studying. WELL DONE!!!!

By Metarinka (****)

Date 07-27-2008 19:33

thanks for the kind words all. I agree about engineers tend to sometimes have their heads in the clouds and don't have a grip on if it's actually feasible to fabricate an item. for the record I've worked as a welder for the last 4 years and worked on the plant floor at my internship for about 3 months before I convinced them to hire me on as an engineering intern. The biggest problem they had was a hands-off approach to welding design. They made some finely engineered products in all other aspects but the fabrication part they just created a lot of unnecessary waste.

I hope to graduate next year and get a job that's in the muck like a field engineer or what not. I would like to think that having worked as a welder I avoid a lot of the mistakes the mechanical engineers make i part design. I never designed a structure I couldn't personally go out on the floor and build myself.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 07-28-2008 03:13

Some engineers are afraid to get dirt on the soles of their shoes [meaning that they avoid having to go on the shop floor like they would avoid the plague], You obviously are not, and that is a good thing. Being willing to get involved "where the rubber meets the road" will help You gain the respect of the others, engineers and welders alike.

I think You are going about Your education the right way. I feel the hands on shop experience has a lot of value, and is just as important as the theoretical aspect of the education.

By g32141

Date 08-08-2008 07:31

Pipeline welders lie on their backs in the mud almost everyday. Engineers and welding inspectors should do the same.

Welding inspectors shouldn't use mirrors to inspect the the weld on the other side of the pipe either.

NDT should be done AFTER visual inspection. I have had to redo welds days later because a welding VT guy made a welder redo a cap. Don't put VT OK on the pipe if you haven't looked at it.

If you make a guy reweld a cap is must be examined again.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 08-08-2008 21:19 Edited 08-09-2008 00:02

g32141,
What a load of crap.
I, like many other CWIs on this forum am an ex welder who became a Welding Inspector because I didn't want to crawl around in the mud anymore.
17 years of rolling around in trenches, hanging upside down in boilers, kneeling on concrete floors etc tends to wreck your body.
At 46 years old with 28 years in the game I am going to use any tool I can to make my job easier including using a mirror.
I have paid my dues, I don't need to read rubbish from someone who is probably still wet behind the ears.
If you have a problem with an inspector, take it up with him. Don't tar us all with the same brush.
Shane

By thewelder (***)

Date 08-08-2008 23:45

That's very thuth.

By g32141

Date 08-09-2008 03:57

Shane,

I wasn't trying to tar everyone with the same brush. I just don't think mirrors are a good idea in the hands of some people for obvious reasons. I have had to use them as an inspection tool myself working on aircraft. Sometimes they are only way to see an area due to physical constraints and must be used. When this isn't the case I don't think they should be used unless there is a safety concern.

If I have a problem with something I will bring it up.

After nearly 14 years of just doing NDT I don't consider myself wet behind the ears and I am not so arrogant as to think that I know everything either.

I'm not speaking rubbish by the way, just from my own observation and experience. I am all for making my job easier, less stressfull and more efficient too but I won't cut corners to get it done.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 08-09-2008 00:54

G32141

Interesting that you should hate the inspector's mirror. I was brought on my first pipeline job, because the welders who "almost never made a bad weld", blew 36 of the first forty two joints (X-Ray) and were blaming it on "SOFT PIPE". I looked at the radiographs and saw classic "Wagon Tracks" indications on the films. The contractor spent $14,000.00 having the pipe and a 45 and a 90 elbow analyzed for metallurgical problems.

Now to me, common sense should have told anyone with an IQ greater than 65, that the pipe came from one manufacturer and the Els came from other manufacturers, so "Soft Pipe" (whatever that means) could not be the cause. So I am glad they parted with $14,000.00 of the owners profit just for being so stupid. Too bad the welders didn't have to pay half, for their shoddy workmanship!

The first day on the job in the marshalling yard, they were double ending and making up elbow spools. They started welding at 0700, and I started at 0730. At 0730, I told the crew that they had to hold for my inspection between the root and the hot pass. OH! But the code says that we have to get the hot pass in whithin 20 minutes. I said that this was just a recommendation, and no matter what, why, or how long, they had to wait for my inspection of the root pass grind off, prior starting the hot pass.

Well, this was a Union Company (Operating Engineers) and they all walked off and went to the office. The manager came out and gave me what for. I told him to call the owner, and twenty minutes later they all came out and said that they had to do whatever I said. I rejected the incomplete joint they has started at 0700 out of hand and told them it was a cut out. But you didn't even inspect it?!?! Actually I did hear the two blow throughs that you made on the hot pass.

When the root pass on the second joint was completed, I got down and dirty inspecting it, and made them grind out several remaining slag lines. They protested that they would burn all those slag lines out with the hot pass (All Downhill - API !!04 XC pipe job, 16 to 24 inch schedule 40 pipe.). I told them that all the failures I had seen on the radiographs were wagon tracks, which meant that they were not burning the slag lines out.

When the job moved into the Streets of Brooklyn, NY some of the street cuts were only 20 inches wide. There were bell holes, but I weighed about 400 pounds, and I couldn't fit in any of them. I could barely fit in the slot cut in the ashphalt. So, I produced something the welders never saw before; an inspection mirror! With the mirror, I showed them every slag line without climbing under and wedging myself into a bell hole.

Now when you do cross country pipe in Manhattan, you might have 700 to a thousand joints per mile. In Brooklyn, we only had 550 to 750 joints per mile. Each crew welds two and sometimes, but rarely, three joints a day. One crew started from the terminal end and My crew started from the burried TETCO Main end.

They all hated that mirror, because with it, I could pick out every piece of slag there was. Then one day, at about joint 95 or so, they were double ending a joint up on the city street. and the two welders and the supervisor all took turns grinding out the root pass and reinspecting it before I inspected. They dared me to find any slag lines in that joint!!! I didn't need a mirror on that joint, because there was plenty of access. But I knew they were challenging me, so I used the mirror and showed them the slag they missed. There was no argument. I showed them the slag in the mirror. They all agreed that it was there. I also showed them why I could find things with a mirror that they couldn't see straight on. (With a slight twist of the wrist, I was looking at the joint from a different aspect angle with different lighting conditions. When they looked at the joint straight on, they didn't have that advantage, and the lighting conditions were not always favorable.)

The best compliment that I had on that job was - "Damn mirror, It is worse than an X-Ray"!!

Now they continued to weld all the way up to joint 129 without a failure on X-ray. At joint 129, I went down to the terminal and another CWI took over from me. Joint 130 failed X-ray twice then had to be cut out. It failed the first time on the new joint. ( They were only allowed 1 repair and then they had to cut out) Joint 132 had two cut outs and passed on the 5th try. Joint 135 had one failure, joint 137 had one failure. They were able to bamboozle the replacement inspector, but they couldn't fool the x-ray.

I went back at joint 139, and lowered the boom again, and they welded up to joint 174 without another X-ray failure.

Now, These were top notch welders, and I didn't strike arc - one on that job. I just made them follow all the rules that they learned in aprentiss school, and when they did that, they were successful. The the other inspector that took over for me at joint 129, they actually conned into showing that he could weld. He couldn't do it any more, and they brow beat him with it. Of course they didn't pass X-ray too often once they cowed him, and reverted to business as usual. Sloppy work meant bad results!

So, when I run into hot shot welders who think I should be as dirty or dirtier than they are, I just smile. Give me all the lip you want. Don't let me use your mud board. Oh, did you know that I also check the parameters when you are under the hood. Do you know that I can hear it, when you blow through on the hot pass. Do you know that I time all the operations. Do you know that I also inspect the antler (work lead grounding device) for arc strike actions. Do you know that the owners ask me for recommendations? Don't ask me for any slack on the clamp removal rules, or that slight hi-lo that you can't seem to clamp out.

By the way, the reasons these crews "Almost never blow an x-ray" is because they mostly weld the water column pressure pipelines in the city streets, and they all don't get x-rayed. The ones that do get X-rayed are selectively presorted by the welding foreman. The Pipes that I was inspecting were part of the 750 psi cross country facility main, and every joint had to be x-rayed.

I agree that VT should be done before NDT. Why would an inspector write VT-OK on a joint he did not inspect? Yess all weld repairs have to be VT' ed again before a new NDT operation is performed.

Joe Kane

By jrw159

Date 08-11-2008 15:02

g32141,
First off let me tell you, a mirror is a recommended inspection tool. As long as the mirror is within 18 inches of the weld and your eye is within 18 inches of the mirror, it is legite! Ever welded with a mirror?? Evedintly NOT. I HAVE, as well as many others. I personally feel that you should not be considered an inspector if you do not have an inspection mirror in your arsenal of tools.

Sounds like you left a bad spot, thinking that the inspector will never find it in that position, then whammo, out comes an inspection mirror. You have just finished rolling around in the mud for 30 minutes trying, unsuccessfully, to achieve a good weld, and here comes the inspector, your thinking, he will have to get muddy as hell to ever find the problem, but he was smarter than that, and without missing a beat, uses his mirror, finds the problem, writes it up and walks away as clean as he walked up.

Now, my take an what happened may very well be way off, and if it is, sorry for reading into it like that, but that is the way you came off.

BUT my take on the use of a mirror is BALLS ON and you will not be able to negate it. Try if you want, but it will be a waste of your time.

jrw159

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 08-11-2008 20:39

John,
If I read g32141s post correctly he was speaking from an NDT technicians perspective and not a welders.
A VT inspector has written OK on a weld that g32141 has then RTed or MTed and then days later the VT tech has rejected the same weld that he supposedly said was OK.
I have no problem with his anger regarding this, however, the statement that inspectors and engineers should roll around in the mud was just stupid IMHO.
I agree with a lot of what Joe said but I have a little bit of a different take on the use of a mirror. A mirror as Joe stated can sometimes find things that the naked eye may miss but it can also distort the shape / size of an indication. That is why I consider a mirror as an inspection aid and not an inspection tool.
I will use a mirror to access difficult / tight / dirty / wet areas and if I spot something that concerns me I will then crawl into the difficult / tight /dirty / wet areas to investigate.
A little bit of mud never hurt anyone but if there are ways of doing your job without getting dirty you would be a fool not to use them.
Regards,
Shane

By jrw159

Date 08-11-2008 23:59

Shane,
AGREED.

One fact that I failed to mention is the mirror should not be magnified(convex).

I will say again, IF I misread into his post, I am sorry, BUT a mirror is an ACCEPTABLE inspection tool and if a welder does not like the fact that we do not need to get dirty because we know how to utilize this tool, TOO BAD.

Thank you for your well worded and respectable opinion. :-)

jrw159

By g32141

Date 08-12-2008 05:11 Edited 08-12-2008 05:19

jrw159,

I have never welded with a mirror but I have seen it done on a nuke sub. It takes a lot of skill no doubt about that.

Mirrors are a helpful tool. I just don't like them being used just to see if the weld has a cap on it. Then some time later the weld is rejected for an arc strike or needs rework because the visual inspection was done by someone with a mirror on a 3 foot long stick on the opposite side of a 36 inch pipe. How can your eyes be close enough to the mirror to ensure anything other than that it has a cap?

By jrw159

Date 08-12-2008 18:19

g32141,
A mirror on a three foot stick would not be a valid visual inspection. VT inspection must be done within 18 inches.

jrw159

By hogan

Date 08-12-2008 18:37

It sounds like your more upset that you had to rework an already accepted weld vs a detest for using mirrors for inspection purposes.

By g32141

Date 08-14-2008 06:03

jrw159,

Tell that to pipeline visual inspectors then.

Get the word out.

By jrw159

Date 08-14-2008 06:19

They should have been told that upon testing. LOL

jrw159

By g32141

Date 08-15-2008 03:14

I do my own thing. I have mentioned to my bosses about this stuff.

If I see screwed up welds I report it.

I keep a log of every weld I scan.

By JTMcC

Date 10-24-2008 23:59

What code prohibits that?
I see it all the time in actual practice, I don't see how the firing line inspector would stand a chance of keeping up without his mirror on a stick.
Tie ins, bores or lowering in the guy has time to crawl all over and look directly at every weld. But still, I don't see why they should, you can get a good look with the mirror.

JTMcC.

By g32141

Date 08-12-2008 04:48

Shane,

Yes it is from an NDT view point on a pipeline. Imagine examining a weld that has been cleared visually to be told that you have to go back to do it again because for whatever reason they had to add some to the cap. Now the welding machines need to come back as do the various NDT inspectors.

It wastes lots of time, money and people's patience. Mistakes happen and I understand that as well.

I want to make myself more understood about the rolling around in the mud too.

The welders spend a lot of time to make the weld in often crappy conditions. Sometimes it can take hours to make one weld. The least I can do is give them the best possible service I can provide. If that means getting filthy it means just that. It also means at least looking at the thing. That was what I was trying to say.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 08-12-2008 05:31

g32141,
I understand where you are coming from.
I worked as an RT tech who also did the visual inspections on a couple of small lines in New Zealand and I always carried a file with me for any minor touch ups. Would much rather burn a bit of "elbow grease" myself than have to drag a welder and his rig backwards down the line.
I may have jumped down your throat but I am getting sick and tired of welders both here and on the UK Welder forum moaning about how much they hate welding inspectors.
In 12 years of being a CWI the only welders I have ever had a problem with were either incompetent / lazy / "prima donnas" or had a massive chip on their shoulders.
Anything I can do to help a welder improve his welding makes my job easier, it obviously benefits both of us.
Regards,
Shane

By g32141

Date 08-12-2008 06:18 Edited 08-12-2008 06:26

Shane,

I also carry files around because the welders don't clean the spatter good enough for our scanners to go around the pipe. They are getting better about it. It's the sups who don't let them do it based on the welders I worked with. Worse with the tie in crews.

I have no problem making a phone call and getting a welding machine moved back if it gets to be an every day every weld type of thing. For the most part they have been good.

I always want to know what the weld looks like before I do my thing. Like you I have meet the welder that complains. There are quite a few of them.

I remember one welder after warning him that he is risking a repair because of his welds he said to me "It passed though didn't it?". I told him yes it did but it took me 10 minutes to count all the crap he left in it to make sure it didn't break 25mm in 300mm in the root. Every weld I remember from him was the same way. I could even narrow it down to what side he was welding on that side of the day. He was quite proud of passing by the skin of his teeth. Idiot.

I used to do RT and we had an RT crew on a few of the jobs I was on. I liked to take a look at the film after I rejected something. They had to take a shot on every AUT repair we called. It was quite a wake up call.

I don't care who welded what. At the end of the day I want to sleep good at night.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 08-12-2008 18:38

And you guys give me grief about being a hot head.

You all are about as crotchedy as a bunch of old hens..........lol

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 08-12-2008 19:57

Sourdough,
For someone who singlehandedly keeps the American oil industry running you spend a huge amount of time on the internet.
When do you get time to burn a rod ?
Cheers,
Shane

By Sourdough (****)

Date 08-14-2008 15:54

Mart a##! I got pnuemonia, so the oil and gas industry will have to suffer for a few more days.

I did make a hard push before I got sick though.

That's why fuel prices are low right now......................

By jrw159

Date 08-14-2008 19:01

Thanks for that buddy. Keep up the good work. LOL :-)

jrw159

By Jenn

Date 08-14-2008 19:20

Hope you feel better dude!! Take all your meds like you're supposed to, else you won't get better (I work in a dr's office part time while going to school, so it's my duty to tell you to behave, lol).

Regards!

Jenn

By Sourdough (****)

Date 08-14-2008 20:05

Thanks for that. Yeah, my wife has been on me hard for the last 3 weeks to stay up on the meds, (bless her heart).

My problem is every time I have a good day, I want to go out there and be superman................then I'm stuck in the damn house again.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 08-14-2008 20:57

I had pnuemonia once seems like I haven't been the same since then

By Jenn

Date 08-15-2008 14:30

Me too, I was hospitalized with it one time, fought it for 3 months. I think it scars your lungs permanently - you are never the same again.

By chris2698 (****)

Date 08-15-2008 15:43

yeah I feel like I have gotten sick more since I have had it like right now we're in the middle of August down here in Louisiana it's about 95 or so hot as sh*t and I got a cold.. I don't get it lol no but yeah I have learned if it is cold out side I dress warm for it I try and do whatever I can to not get sick

By Sourdough (****)

Date 08-15-2008 16:53

Mine started while stradling a girder in a derrick, sucking in fumes from the greenie next to me scarfing an old padeye off with a torch. I couldn't get away from the fumes in time.

Good 'ol 1951 lead based super paint. My lungs let me know all that week that they were wounded, but the show must go on. We broke 100 year old heat records here on the western slope for those 3 weeks we were rebuilding that derrick. I would go home sick, and not be able to sleep or eat.

Finally my body just quit me...........................

I'll tell you what: I feel sorry for people who suffer bad from allergies. Not being able to breath or function is for the birds.

By JTMcC

Date 10-25-2008 00:05

I'm not painting everyone with that big old brush, and yes, I realize that in the overall scheme of things these types are a distinct minority.....but when you hear (for the 20th time) from either a visual inspector or xray hand, ect coments like "as long as you keep my brand of beer in your cooler, everything will go smooth", (and I tell them all the same thing with a smile, "get in my cooler and I'll break your arm"), or "I REALLY like Crown Royal, the big bottles", it gets to be annoying.
These are crooked jerks who play stupid games with a mans ability to make a living.
As for the honest inspection out there, I know very few welders who have a problem with them.

JTMcC.

By jrw159

Date 10-25-2008 01:38

I can not stand the workers that think they can buy me off with it. The same insinuations except that it is "I have a bottle of crown in my cooler that says my weld passes."

Guess what!! It is gonna cost you a hell of alot more than that!

My certification, FIELD/school education and reputation are worth more than that chump can make in a lifetime laying down crap and talking sh**.

And to steal your line, if I may, "These are crooked jerks who play stupid games with a mans ability to make a living."

However, I hold a high level of respect for the welder that finishes up, lifts his pancake/hood and looks back over his/her shoulder at me and says come on, and has his/her helper start rolling sh** up to move on up to the next one, WITH CONFIDENCE that he/she does not have to "buy" my approval.

jrw159

By ctacker (****)

Date 10-24-2008 21:51

where does it say 18" and 18"? I looked and couldn't find it. I was thinking when I studied for my CWI I read that you needed to be 12" from the weld. but I couldn't find that either,LOL
We have A job coming up where I will be 28-30 inches away looking into an 7" hole to inspect welds. Told them I would have to look.
haven't found it yet!

By jrw159

Date 10-25-2008 01:28

ctacker,
Thank you for reviving this question. I will see if I can pin down this increment. I may be mistaken about the distance from the eye to mirror, but I am pretty sure about distance from eye to weld is 18"

jrw159

By jrw159

Date 10-27-2008 16:45

ctacker,
I still am unable to pin this down. I may be mistaken. I have a couple of others looking into it as well, so I will keep you posted.

jrw159

By ctacker (****)

Date 10-27-2008 16:49

Thanks, I know I read it somewhere. But I thought it was 12 inches. I'm still looking as well when time allows.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-27-2008 17:11

ASME Section V states 24 inches, I haven't read all the replys so I am might refering to the wrong code :)

3.2

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 10-27-2008 22:09

[deleted]

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-28-2008 18:19

They way I read it, then yes.

3.2

By ctacker (****)

Date 10-28-2008 03:03

Thanks, thats not where I read it but you are right. I read it in one of my job specs from past. the same job is coming up again and I found it. 24" which is where I got my 12.
12 to the mirror and 12 from the mirror.
I am curious about any other specs that call out a distance and angle for viewing welds.

Regards, Carl

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 10-28-2008 18:41

Sorry Carl, but I am to lazy right now to open my work PC(where all the specs and codes are hidden) it's been a rough day :(
But if I am not to much mistaken, the only difference in ASME and EN is the required light, EN only require 600 lux.

I will edit this post in case I am to far off on the EN requirements.

3.2

By ctacker (****)

Date 10-28-2008 18:52

Don't need to look, its a job spec, not ASME or EN. my job spec calls for 24" and 50 Fc minimum Illumination. I cannot get my head close enough so I am getting a new toy. A video camera and HD monitor. :)

Regards, Carl

By jrw159

Date 10-28-2008 19:06

Sweet score. :-) Have fun with it.

Thinking back, it may have been an old spec. that I got my info from as well.

jrw159