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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding Abrasion Resistant Steel
- - By Boon (**) Date 07-29-2008 16:33
I would like to know if anyone has experience welding abrasion resistance steel (Hardox), with hardness of about 400 HB and above 1000 N/mm2 in tensile strength.
Is the material listed in ASME code and what is the P number? I had tried to find but without success.
What would be the suitable electrodes for welding these materials?

Regards
Boon
Parent - By Goose-em (**) Date 07-29-2008 17:28
Weld electrode depends on the application.  If the weld will not be exposed to abrasion it is possible to weld with E70S-X or E71T-1M etc.  If the weld will be subjected to abrasion use an abrasion resistant electrode.  Hardox is not that bad to weld basic preheats will help but for the most part it welds much the same as plain carbon steel.

I am sure somebody will argue with me but we weld the stuff everyday with metalcore electrodes and don't have any problems related to cracking.  Of course our welds are not exposed to abrasion.
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 07-29-2008 20:26
We weld that type of material with metal core 110G wire for the most with 98/2 gas, and like Goose said, it's not much different than carbon steel other than it makes a lot more spatter.  Preheat is decided based on the thickness being welded, but for the most part it's not required.  On many of our high manganese steel, interpass temps can NOT go above 250 or 450 depending on the specific alloy.  We also require the welder to wear a respirator when running this wire.  In the field we use 11018 for welds on plate to plate, and if it's in a wear zone we go back over them with hardfacing rod to build up.

As for your specific P number, can't help.
Parent - - By motgar (**) Date 07-30-2008 12:42
Boon,

Here is some information direct from SSABOX.

http://www.hardox.com/upload/Documents/en_recommend_hxwx_welding_11_v1.pdf

This will direct you to some of their technical literature.  http://www.ssabox.com/templates/brochures/InformationMaterial____10048.aspx  Click the language you want in the drop down box, and a pdf will appear.

As far as the P-Number, it would have to be unassigned.  Assuming you follow the ASME Section IX, if D1.1, then it would be considered unlisted.  Same meaning just different nomenclature.
Parent - - By Boon (**) Date 07-31-2008 16:21
The information available from the web site is extremely useful.
For unassigned P-Number, how should a procedure qualification test be carried out if we follow ASME code?
Can we refer to the base metals as P1 to unlisted?
Parent - By motgar (**) Date 07-31-2008 17:54
ASME Section IX:

QW-424.1 ...... unassigned metals shall be identified in the WPS and on the PQR by specification, type and grade, or by chemical analysis and mechanical propeties.......

If the unassigned metal, AR 400, is welded to any P-No metal in the procedure qualification, then the unassigned metal can be welded to any metal assigned to the same P-No as the metal qualified. 
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 07-30-2008 12:51
Most hardox comes with a coating and should be ground off if using a solid wire. We use flux cored wire on it so we don't have to waste time grinding the coating off.  A small amount of preheat would be wise if your not using a low hydrogen electrode.  Do a search in here for Hardox AR500 or just Hardox, there are a few threads on this with some good links. 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 14:06
The old "flux core will weld over anything" routine, huh?

Al
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 14:15 Edited 07-30-2008 17:54
YEP. Paint, primer, hot dipped galvanized, dirt, rust, mill scale, grease, oil, unicorn crap, jackalope hair, chupacabra spit, leprachaun pee, fairy dust, keebler elf fudge, alien slime, and anything else. LOL

BTW I am just kidding. I do NOT reccomend improper joint preparation. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 14:26
I'm still laughing at your response. Great, I love it!:)

Sorry Kix, you stepped into this one with both feet! Maybe we should throw you a line before you completely sink into the quagmire!;(

Al
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 14:35
Glad you enjoyed it. :-)

No offense Kix.

jrw159
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-31-2008 10:17
leprachaun pee???? LOL.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 07-30-2008 16:54
HA HA real funny guys.. ;-) It's right in the in the HARDOX technical data forms how to weld over the specially designed primer that they have on the plates.  This primer was designed to be able to weld over.  If the plate is coated with PVB or an epoxy primer, it must be romoved regardless of the process to be used.  Sorry If It sounded like I was referencing the FC2002.;-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 17:58
Kix,
  Just having a little fun with it. On a serious note, what, if any, code is applicable to this situation you describe?

I have never dealt with HARDOX.

I do know that there are some coatings designed to weld over, BUT under most code work, even if it is designed to weld over, it is prohibited by code, thus sign off by the EOR is neccessary.

I may be getting ready to learn, but I am always ready for an education.

jrw159
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 07-30-2008 18:09
Here ya go man..  This is the code we use it to.  http://contracting.tacom.army.mil/engr/12479550_%20TACOM_WELD_CODE_STEEL.pdf
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 19:13
Kix,
  I guess my view of this is- if the manufacturer indeed states that it is weldable and they instruct how to do it, if a failure were to occur, they would be responsible. Do you have a link to the tech. data forms you refer to?

I ask this because, it may be in the fine print somewhere, a disclaimer. People will tell us all kinds of things to get us to use their product, but will not put it in writing, and if they do put it in writing, in the fine print is their back door.

I am not saying this is the case, but I would sure want to have hard documentation that I could use to CYA in the event of a problem.

BTW I am not trying to be obtuse, I am just a detail guy who does not like to get caught with my pants down. So this indeed is an educational session for me regardless. Thanks for spending the time to bring me up to speed, it is greatly appreciated. :-)

5.10 Preparation of Base Metal
Surfaces on which weld metal is to be deposited
shall be smooth, uniform, and free from fins, tears,
cracks, and other discontinuities that would
adversely affect the quality or strength of the weld.
Surfaces to be welded, and surfaces adjacent to a
weld, shall also be free from loose or thick scale,
slag, rust, moisture, grease, and other foreign
material that would prevent proper welding or
produce objectionable fumes.

jrw159
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 07-30-2008 19:17
I didn't see anything in there about weldable primer, so that means so far we're good by this code.;-)  I will see if I can find a link to where it talks about the primer.  It might have already been posted above.  4th page of this link "welding primer coated steels"  http://www.hardox.com/upload/Documents/en_recommend_hxwx_welding_11_v1.pdf
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-30-2008 19:39
Kix,
  "Welding of plate coated with anti-corrosion primer may give rise to varying amounts of porosity" combined with "foreign
material that would prevent proper welding" seems to indicate to me that it should be removed at the weld area to be within code. I would get the EOR to buy into it just to CYA. JMHO :-)

Welding of plate coated with anti-corrosion primer
may give rise to varying amounts of porosity.
However, porosity can be minimized by selecting
the right type and coat thickness of primer and by
employing suitable welding parameters.Welding
can then be carried out within the limits specified
by the relevant standards, without the need for
removing the primer.
Before delivery, stock hardox and weldox
plate are protected against corrosion by a lowzinc
silicate primer.This paint has been specially
developed to minimize the pore volumes during
welding. As a result, welding may be carried out
directly onto the primer coat, which contributes
towards improved productivity in the workshop.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 07-31-2008 04:21
I understand that weldable primers are used a lot in ship building as well. I guess that the weldable primer causes fewer problems than rusted material would.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 07-31-2008 13:42
Kix,
What Al said goes double for me. :-)

John
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 07-30-2008 18:15
I'd just dab a little stainless in it followed up by a coat hanger dipped in mud. (Do not use the white painted coat hangers!) :))  NOT REALLY !

I have been around a few AR400/500 joints used a wear pads of centrif. fans. It was often welded with FCAW-(SS) E70 was normally used and did quite well. The plug welds were a little tricky sometimes. I think the volume of FCAW-SS wire was too much in a small area.

Increase preheat = Reduced cracking .

Reduce Restraint = Reduced Cracking

Avoid high depth to width ratio joints.

Avoid hard fitups on tee joints, leave room for contraction by the use of crush wires .

If it sounds like it cracked while you are welding IT DID.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-31-2008 03:09
Kix, I hope you know I was just raising a little dust with you. It was in jest I assure you.

Your contributions to the forum are always positive and I respect what you have to say.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 08-06-2008 02:10
I hope It didn't look like I was getting my panties in a wad because I was just trying to wet down the dust you guys were kickin up at me. ;-) I can take sit from the best of them and I dish out every last bit I take when I get a chance.lol I wish we would all do it more because it keeps us on our toes.;-)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-06-2008 02:12
:)

Al
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-06-2008 14:04
Kix,
  Not at all my friend. All in good fun and learning. Thanks so much for taking the time to converse with me on this subject. :-)

jrw159
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding Abrasion Resistant Steel

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