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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / weld rejection do to rapid cooling by water
- - By Travis Collins (**) Date 08-22-2008 13:03
I have a fabricator welding a CJP weld with backing, FCAW. After he is half way completed, flux chipped off of weld, water is spilled onto part of the weld. How should I handle this problem?  I dont know exactly how much water was spilled, and dont know if it affected the weld or not. Any suggestions on how to handle this?
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 08-22-2008 14:21
Travis-

I would say that quenching a weld really isn't good practice. There are many things to consider, like type of steel, filler,  base metal thickness, WPS, etc. I would suggest reading through Annex I in D1.1 (2006). You should be able to get some specific information there.

Jason
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-22-2008 15:11
The chances are that the weld had cooled below the T1 temperature when the water was spilled, so there is little danger the base metal will be hardened. That is, it wasn't quenched from the austenizing temperature.

If you are welding on prequalified base metal that isn't quenced and tempered, the CE is "relatively" low, so the hardenability is relatively low. There is a slim chance the hardness is a major concern.

That being said, you can do some hardness tests on the area in question and compare them to welds that were not subject to the cooling effects of the water. If there is a significant difference, further investigation may be warrented.

You mentioned the weld wasn't completed at the time the water was spilled. Did they continue to weld over the area that was affected? If they did, the subsequent welding most likely tempered the area that was cooled by the water if it was hot enough to cause a change in hardness.

If the hardness of the affected area is significant, consider doing a localiized heat treatment if the member is in a critical area.

It is never a good idea to cool a weld quickly, but from a practical standpoint, I have taken A36 plate welded with E7018 and tossed it into a snow bank while it was still very hot (nearly red) and still had the bend straps pass the requirements of D1.1. Rest easy, these were not welder qualification tests, these were some experiments that I performed at different temperatures to see how sensitive the A36 is to rapid cooling. As I found out, the carbon content is low enough that the resulting hardness was not high enough to concern me. Was it harder? Yes, but not much different than the material that was allowed to air cool.

The higher the carbon equivalency, the more sensitive the base metal is to quenching, but most of the prequalified steels have relatively low carbon equivalencies. Hardening occurs when the metal is cooled from the austenizing temperatures (above 1330 F). Heating to temperatures below T1 (1330 F) will soften the steel. Rapid cooling will only affect austenite, that is, it there is retained austenite at the temperature when the water was spilled, it may have transformed to martensite, but I doubt there was much in the way of retained austenite unless the water was spilled as the welder "broke" his arc, because the weld cools to temperatures below T1 almost immediately.

Best regarts - Al
Parent - - By Travis Collins (**) Date 08-22-2008 16:01
Al thanks for your comments.  The steel is A500B using E70T electrode. Yes the welder continued to fill the joint after the water had evaperated. Do you think a heat treatment would be a good idea?  Tempering?  Like I said this was a accidental spill and not really sure how much of the weld was accualy in contact with the water.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-22-2008 16:30 Edited 08-23-2008 00:31
I wasn't there to witness the event, but if you are talking about a cup of water spilling, it most likely ran over the weld and off to one side. The steam from the boiling action of the water would actually blanket the weld and reduce the "quench" affect.

I doubt there was any significant harm done considering the low carbon equivalency of the A500 tube. 

If you told me the HSS member rolled off the saw horses and off the side of the barge, into the ocean, I might be a little more concerned.

Do I condone dumping water on a weld? Heck no. Was there real damage done? Again, I doubt it. Consider how they roll steel, they spray it with water so the steam will prevent the formation of heavy mill scale during the rolling process.

Do you need to do a localized heat treatment? Again, I doubt it is necessary.

A hardness survey will give you a quick means of determining if any serious hardening resulted from the accidental spill.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Travis Collins (**) Date 08-22-2008 20:52
Ok, thank for all of your help.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-22-2008 16:39
I'm glad that Al was able to answer this question...I was sitting here with several replies all typed out and then got called away before I was able to finish any of them. I really didn't have any real information to add, other than my opinion anyway, so it was just as well. I can imagine that if a cup of water spilled over onto that joint after several passes were completed, I would venture to say (like Al mentioned) that the water itself probably danced off before having too much of a quenching effect anyway.
Parent - - By bmaas1 (***) Date 08-22-2008 15:03
Travis,

Is the quenching intentional?  If it is I would inquire as to why.

Regards,

Brian
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 08-22-2008 20:24
You could always do the math on say the quenching ability of 8 oz of water on metal. Simply put I doubt there is a big enough heat capacity of so little water to greately affect hardness.
It takes quite a bit of water to cool metal especially of thicker sections
Parent - - By 3.1 Inspector Date 08-22-2008 20:30
It takes quite a bit of water to cool metal especially of thicker sections .....Yes it does, but you could create thermal stress.

Keep in mind that it is the 8/5 cooling rate which is important.(and the heat generated by quick cooling)

In this case, I doubt it would have any impact.

3.1

Since I am banned by all, I might as well write in Arabic :)
Parent - By Travis Collins (**) Date 08-22-2008 20:52
thanks all
Parent - - By 59halfstep Date 08-22-2008 20:53
Quote "Since I am banned by all, I might as well write in Arabic :) 
3;1"

It would be that much easier to ignore your posts if you did.

Charlie
Parent - - By 3.1 Inspector Date 08-23-2008 06:15
You have two choices here.

1) Click on my name, once the page has fully reloaded you click on the ignore button.

2) Go to your favorites folder and delete the AWS forum.

Whatever you choose suits me equally fine :)

3.1
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 08-23-2008 06:43
3.1,

There is a third choice, which is to ban you.

It's been nice. Bye.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 08-23-2008 11:17
I guess that only works effectively if you ban the IP address!
Welcome to the Forum 3.2 Inspector! :)
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-23-2008 11:18
Thanks.

3.2
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-23-2008 13:45
3.2 Inspector,
  Welcome to the forum. :-)

Fresh slate??? Fresh start????

Lets hope. :-)

Best regards,
jrw159
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-23-2008 13:49
yes.

Thank you, looking forward to stay here for a while.

3.2
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-23-2008 14:28
And there was much rejoicing
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 08-23-2008 13:41
3.1 or as it appears 3.2 now,
   Ya know, this was an excellent reply that had value, BUT was it really neccessary to add "Since I am banned by all, I might as well write in Arabic" especially at this point in the GAME. Jesus Christ LET IT GO ALREADY. GET OVER IT.

I have made this statement to you at one point in the past, and you said you would, but you did NOT. GROW UP!!

Some of us, like myself, are ready and willing to forgive and forget, but even this is getting to be to much.

One must give respect to earn respect, and there comes a time to let things that are better off dead, die.

I may very well be the only one with any patience and hope left for you, and that is dwindling by the minute. You have, at times, been of value to this forum when you can control your emotions, and I for one would hate to see you banned from this site. BUT I would hate even more to see any more of your BS comments and vicious verbal attacks on people who happen to disagree with you at times.

Good luck,
jrw159
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 08-23-2008 13:48
jrw159,

I know my reply was most stupid!!

New name, new way of writting.

3.2
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-02-2008 12:46
You are still here?
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-02-2008 19:18
Yes.
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 09-02-2008 23:08
Was it still wet when welding resumed?  Is there any kind of NDT planned for the weld?  UT, RT? 

Hg
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / weld rejection do to rapid cooling by water

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