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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding cast aluminum block - correctly
- - By Code-Red Date 08-22-2008 17:41
I'm currently in a debate with a "welder" who had welded a guys mounting points on his block due to cracking. His customers block ripped the bolts out of the repaired area, and he refused to pay for what happened. This is where I stepped in.



From what it looks like (and what I've been told), he used a TIG-pulse welding configuration and laid pass after pass, only letting the block air cool to room temperature. He cut out 1/4 inch of material to weld the crack at its root, so there was at the very least 1/4 of material welded onto this (it looks like it was ground down as well). The block was not sent through a hot isostatic process, nor was it put in an oven prior to, or even after (he could have even used vermiculite...) doing any and all of his passes.

This engine weighs approximately 300lbs and in a FWD configuration, has a lot of torque and engine movement. I feel this weld was not done to an acceptable standard whatsoever, and he should be back charged for his shoddy workmanship. I feel that his work is the direct cause of the malfunction of the rear engine mount (leading it to be ripped out of the block), as this has NEVER happened on any block that has not had to have been repaired.

From what I've been told from several veteran welders, is that the block should have been replaced in the first place. If a repair WAS attempted, it should not have been done with TIG, but MAPP/Propain gas torch and special filler metals. The block should have been prepped properly (HIP, heat oven cooling).

Your opinions on the matter, along with references to sources of information would be very appreciated.

Thanks guys/girls.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 08-22-2008 18:01
I would have to start by seeing exactly what the paper work says regarding what work the welder was to perform.
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 08-22-2008 20:25
The part was NO good in the broken state, so he elected to have it welded.  It was broke anyway, so why should he be paying back charges for trying to fix it?  You stated "I feel this weld was not done to an acceptable standard whatsoever, and he should be back charged for his shoddy workmanship", so what was the code or standard that was discussed prior to the welder doing the work?  What were the workmanship requirements?  I'm not sure of any code or standard that addresses cast aluminum engine block welding repairs.  I think you are way out of bounds on your assumptions. 

Your next statement "The block was not sent through a hot isostatic process, nor was it put in an oven prior to, or even after (he could have even used vermiculite...) doing any and all of his passes".  Now I ask:  So what, did it need to, was local heat from the arc enough to get the job done??

And the next one "I feel that his work is the direct cause of the malfunction of the rear engine mount (leading it to be ripped out of the block), as this has NEVER happened on any block that has not had to have been repaired".  Now I ask:  Why did the rear mount need to be repaired in the first place??? Hummm, now that's interesting.

And now the best of all: "From what I've been told from several veteran welders, is that the block should have been replaced in the first place. If a repair WAS attempted, it should not have been done with TIG, but MAPP/Propain gas torch and special filler metals. The block should have been prepped properly (HIP, heat oven cooling)."  Now, I don't know ANY welder that would repair aluminum with this process

You asked us for our references, but before giving that, what are yours???

It's hard to really see, but it looks like there is spatter on the part.  GTAW (tig) would not have produced so much spatter, so maybe it was GMAW (mig) welded.  In any case, GTAW would be the process of choice to make such a repair.  Some aluminum castings are not well suited for welding repair.  The welder should have told the guy that is may or may not work.  I have repaired many engine and transmission parts, some are still in service, some probably not.  I have always informed the customer that you part was broke when you brought it here, and I will do my best to fix it, but sometimes it will not work no matter how you do it.  In either case I'm going to charge you for my time and materials.  If you choose to leave without having it fixed, that's fine, if you want me to do it there is not a guarantee on the fix.

You're wrong, the guy tried to do a good job on some hard stuff to fix.  If you know so many welders and got such good information from them, why didn't one of those guys fix it???

Mark
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-22-2008 23:01
There's little I can add to that response.

I will ask a couple of additional questions. Did the owner tell the welder what the alloy was or did he depend on the welder's judgment?

Would the owner have been willing to spend an extra $100 to have a sample of the casting analyzed to determine what the alloy was and the delay involved in waiting for the laboratory report?

Or as is usually the case, the owner wanted a quick repair at the lowest cost?

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-02-2008 19:28
I was under the impression that alot of cast aluminum automotive parts were ASTM A356.
Parent - By MBSims (****) Date 08-23-2008 00:47
The procedure you describe sounds appropriate for welding aluminum.  If the bolts were ripped out of the holes, then I would be looking closer at the drilling and tapping of the new holes as a possible cause.  Sounds like the bolts could have been cross-threaded or the threads stripped by over tightening.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 08-23-2008 02:59
   I agree with those above, and MBSims in particular.

   If You heat an entire engine block [to a temperature much above operating temperature] You run a great chance of having severe distortion on all the critical surfaces. Unless You expect to re machine all of them, which is usually impractical and sometimes impossible. If You are suggesting that the weld deposit should have been a heat treatable aluminum alloy and the repaired block put through a heat treat cycle, You are way off base.

   The weld deposit did remain attached to the block, so there must have been sufficient fusion in spite of lack of pre heat, and post heating/ delayed cooling would not have increased the mechanical properties of the weld deposit.

    I would agree with the guys who suggested replacement of the block in the first place. With regards to the low temp aluminum solder Your vetran welders mentioned, it does work well for soldering nail holes in beer cans, but I am unsure that You will have sucess on a 300# engine block with it.

    If the engine is in good condition and the material around the stripped holes is sound, You might try helicoils. If You are drilling the holes with a hand held drill and hand tapping them, You will probably tear out the helicoils too.

    
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 08-23-2008 14:07 Edited 08-23-2008 14:11
I agree with Dave, A helicoil should do the trick, if the hole is already oversized, you can us an overized helicoil, if the hole is still too big for that, you can use a twinsert, basically a helicoil in a helicoil, and there is also the option of using a keensert. It will be much stronger than the original. (if done properly), as long as the surrounding metal is sound.

Question:
Did sombody chase the threads with a tap before trying to install the bolt? If the threaded area was welded, guaranteed it shrunk or distorted some. Trying to force a bolt in will just gall the aluminum and compound the problems.

Jason
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-23-2008 14:11
I"ve repaired hundreds of aluminum castings to the highest standards.... Always GTAW... Never gas welded or soldered....  Never HIPPED.  You really ought to look up hot isostatic processing and get a clue about what it is before you go on and on about applying it to aluminum engine blocks that could have probably been fixed with a helicoil and no welding at all.

The fellas have covered everything here...  I"m sure you don't like the answers, but your hearing them from from the best professionals on the planet and not some hack pal who uses pop-can solder he bought at Home Depot or the Farmers market.
Parent - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 08-23-2008 16:37
It's hard for me to tell by the pictures what was done. I have welded Alum. engine blocks using GTAW DC Straight Polarity with Helium and have not had a problem. It was for the most part a patch where a rod came through the block.

Thanks
Jim
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-23-2008 19:01 Edited 08-23-2008 19:08
Code-Red,

/quote Lawrence/

"...The fellas have covered everything here...  I"m sure you don't like the answers, but your hearing them from from the best professionals on the planet and not some hack pal who uses pop-can solder he bought at Home Depot or the Farmers market."

/unquote/

This is pretty true.

Thus it's normally unneeded to add something.

However, just as a very short remark to this from my side, based upon what Jim Hughes has posted.

There is a patent granted in Germany to the MTU company (Maschinen und Turbinen Union).

They have "developed" the so-called AGL-power source or process respectively, (A = Aluminium - GL = Gleichstrom) which stands for GTAW Aluminum Welding under Helium with DCEN polarity. Although it is idle to discuss if they were the "inventors" of DCEN GTAW Aluminum under Helium, the process itself is quite interesting.

It allows actually to weld greater wall thicknesses e.g. cast aluminum motor blocks without the need to preheat or remove them prior to welding. This is due to the intensive and tight geometrical area of heat input. Its being used in a wide field where submarine- or in general large ship motor blocks have to be repaired (e.g. in case of cracking).

As far as I know its being accomplished with great success without preheating the heavy AlSi-cast block.

I have tried to find two reports about the use of the process being contained somewhere in my trade journal collections, but I beg your forgiveness, I haven't found them and it would take too long to continue the search - although I know they are there.

I have tried to google the articles but the only document I found is a kind of leaflet from a German company (MAUDERER) using this process (patent) to repair large walled AlSi cast motor blocks without preheating or removing the block or to weld large wall thicknessed Aluminum constructions. I'd like to attach the document here, but I apologize for that it's written in German.

However, it doesn't matter, since I think the hint coming from Jim Hughes, additionally to what's already been posted by the other experts is worth Gold. I mean the usage of Helium - patent to and fro - might be worth a try at least.

You have to consider however, that the arc ignition might make some problems when using Helium, since it needs a higher voltage. But it depends upon the power supply and if so you might try striking the arc.

Helium finally could make sense in your case...

Just my humble opinion.

Thanks and best regards,
Stephan
Attachment: MAUDERER.pdf (99k)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-23-2008 19:22 Edited 08-23-2008 19:24
Stephen

Thank you for sharing this top information.

I like everything about the process you describe and consider it very valuable.

The problem that comes to mind only would occur with lower quality castings......... In a repair environment when only the highest quality castings are being repaired and only the best tools and procedures are followed for surface preparation and removal of the discontinuities I think the DCEN with He is a very good choice.

Under imperfect conditions (most repair shops that are not funded by Government contracts) I still hold GTAW with Alternating Current to be a very valid method for casting repair. Especially since the environmental regulations made TriChloroEthane hot vapor degreasers obsolete.  If the casting quality is not of the highest purity and the preparation is not to the very highest standards DCEN GTAW  will be as problematic as any other casting repair technique.

Kudos to the Germans for publishing in depth about how to do things the best way!
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 08-24-2008 07:10
My pleasure Lar! :-)

Good points... as ususal!

Thanks and best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 08-28-2008 14:53
I bet with a Miller Dynasty 700 and the ability to fine tune everything, even the amount of straight polarity, you could weld just about any aluminum casting on earth.;-)  For sits and gigles, on A/C polarity, I turned the reverse side all the way down and the straight all the way up and put it to some stainless steel.  It had rapid cooling and makes me want to try it in an open root someday.  I have a bad feeling the mechanicals probably wouldn't be that good though. lol  It welded very nicely, but the color was not up to my standards either.  Maybe with the right frequency adjustment, I could of had some decent color.  It was pink, which isn't bad, but I strive for the straw,purple and light blue shiny look.:-)
    
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-28-2008 19:57 Edited 08-28-2008 20:01
We used an Aerowave (same capabilities pretty much) to do trials on Green Inco 718 castings with various amounts of oxidation on the surface... From well prepped and clean, to black right off the engine...

The Aysemmetric/unbalanced AC (high EP/very short dwell) made for some very interesting samples with some impressive surface cleaning from the DCEP side of the half cycle, and I think there could be some situations where such a setup might apply... But getting engineers to buy off on such a hair brained scheme would be a pretty tough row to hoe.

Now I have both an Aerowave and a Dynasty on Steroids (350) but no longer have access to all the scrap inconel and fully outfitted lab.  But we are always willing to do projects with outside partners  :)
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 08-29-2008 11:34
Ray,

I'm sure you're able to weld any aluminum casting on earth... :-)

Best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 08-29-2008 12:13
Code-Red,
is this a Ford Escort block? If it is its a whole different world.

Jim
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 08-29-2008 13:42
Dam Fords. lol   Always having to be different..;-)
Parent - By Jim Hughes (***) Date 08-29-2008 20:49
That did sound kind of funny. :) I was talking to a buddy of mine about this topic. We both have used the GTAW Straight pol. with Helium process on Alum. and he reminded of a ford escort block that I think is a 7075 Alum. and is very hard and very difficult to weld. He told me when someone would bring a head in to him to weld he would recomend just to buy a rebuilt one. I just wanted to find out if that's what he was up against. I could not really tell anything by the picture.

Thanks
Jim
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding cast aluminum block - correctly

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