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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Lincoln or Miller made in USA anymore?
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- - By Oregon Jake (**) Date 09-09-2008 17:53
All the companies these days seem to be outsourcing products and materials overseas or below borders, and it bugs me.  Doesen't anybody remember when the best tools were made in the USA by Americans?  With those good tools our dads and grandpas built great things, and that made Americans proud of thier country.  It bugs me that when a newer Miller or Lincoln welder breaks down and I take off the sheet metal to find the problem, there are stickers or stamps on parts that say "MADE IN CHINA" or "HECHO EN MEXICO".  Even when the welding machine manufacturers facility is ISO certified, the welders are still filled with plastic and PCBs, "printed circuit boards", that wear out and break all too soon.  I'm okay with importing rice and tortilla chips, but not my welders and consumables.

When new machines go down on the job, I can almost always look over my shoulder and see the dented up grey Lincolns from the 1960s or faded blue Millers from the 1970s still chugging away, getting the job done.  Remember when Americans built the best stuff, in America?  I want us to be proud like that again. 

Here's a link to pictures of the Lincoln Electric China factories, that you and your families probably don't work at.  Watch that communist flag wave over the Lincoln Electric emblem.    

http://www.lincolnelectric.com.cn/english/corporate.htm

Oregon Jake     
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-09-2008 18:44
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Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 09-10-2008 02:26
To clarify, the Vantage line of engine drives is not "inverter based".
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 02:29 Edited 09-10-2008 04:32
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Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 03:07 Edited 09-10-2008 05:41
steve the vantages have a three-phase alternator that sends AC current thru the chopper technology module which rectifies it to a DC current. the module has a switch in it that turns the DC power on and off very rapidly, in return the arc dynamics are controlled then the DC current is smoothed out through a inductor. its supossed to be able to maintain a very stable amperage thru a workday. basicaly the same way an inverter works. but lincoln says the chopper technology module is simillar to an inverter LOL im callin a spade a spade. steve i know you have knowledge with the inverters what do you think of the comparision of the two on how they operate? also i think millers inverter got lincoln beat on the chopper technology as far as arc consistenacy goes.  
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 03:30
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Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 04:21
Im no welder technician by know means but have knowledge of welding machines and how electricity works. if the engine driven machine is'nt a pure DC generator like SA200 AND CLASSIC 3D'S, then it is powered by a AC alternator so this means to get DC current it has to be rectified @ filtered thru an inverter or as lincoln calls it CHOPPER TECHNOLOGY same process. so yes the vantage is an inverter type machine they just call it a trademarked named "chopper technology" that came from two lincoln reps that i've spoke with when i was considering buying a new vantage 300.  
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 04:30
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Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 04:45
you got that right steve! i probally sound like a miller guy but im not. the only reason i would buy a miller to put on a rig is if i had to do fluxcore or mig thats it just a backup. i think lincoln messed up what they sould have done with the vantage is styled it after the sa200 or 250's keep the stainless sheetmetal,put a tm27d engine in it and a factory chop job and called it pipeliner 300, miller wouldn't be in the pic at all on ROW's
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-10-2008 05:23
      The description of the Vantage sounds like the definition of an inverter to Me too. Good, bad or indifferent I couldn't say, but it does rely on a load of electronics.

       I know 2 guys with Trailblazer 301s, they both think the arc is wonderfull, and one of those guys has 2 Lincoln generator machines.

       Hobart made generator machines for years, does anybody know anything about them?
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 09-10-2008 15:34
If you are burning 1/4" Lohi at 200 amps, you have bigger things to worry about than a buzzing sound.

If you had a few hundred hours actually welding with the machines you mentioned, you might have a bit more credibility in critiqueing or critisizing those machines.

I've got a 1980 SA-200 that will stack with any 200 I've ever run including 50's & 60's models.

The Miller PipePro's have had serious reliability problems. The Vantages have proven very reliable out in the field. Having run both I think either machine will fill/cap just fine but the PipePro doesn't handle tight space on the stringer bead near as well as the Vantages do. Plus the high rpm of the PipePro is annoying.

My take.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 16:30 Edited 09-10-2008 19:41
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Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 09-10-2008 18:14
You seem to have taken that post personal, it's not. But if you intend to critique machines or entire classes of machines it helps to have actual real world experience with those machines. Hard to dispute that fact.

You condemn, like I said, an entire class, when a more accurate outlook is going to come from looking at the welding characteristics/reliability of a particular model. It's like saying I once knew of a very unreliable V-6, so all V-6's are unreliable. I've watched the Vantages pretty close since they came out, and I know quite a few people who own them plus I talk to every welder I see with one and they seem to be a very reliable machine.

1/4" Lohi won't even lite at those amperages, the bottom end will run around 300-325 amps and the top end around 400-440 amps.

Just my observations, don't get worked up over it ; )

JTMcC
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 18:38
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Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-10-2008 19:15 Edited 09-10-2008 19:29
maybe you had 5/16 or 3/16" rods?....whoops typo alert....5/16" should read 5/32"
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 19:25
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Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-10-2008 19:28
I mentioned those two sizes because they will light and run @ 200 or there abouts....it's towards the upper end for the 5/32 but the very bottom for the 3/16. The 1/4" starts like was stated at about 300 up to 400 or so...
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-11-2008 02:30
    John, I didn't look it up, but I guessed 1/4" rods wanted a load of amperage, that is why I questioned, in another thread, about running them on an SA 200. I guess it takes a 200 in good shape, and even then You are in the low end of the range.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-11-2008 11:13
Like has been stated already...it's no biggie....We use those rods here on occasion so I knew about where they liked to be run(at least on our machines here)...but we are using 3ph 600amp machines, and they don't even grunt with a 1/4" 7018.
Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 21:31
steve, i didn't think we had to have 30 years experiance for you and i to critize or compare machines, we didn't condemn a entire class of welding machines we were talking about two machines and comparing them for discussion i do have welding experiance with a vantage and breif exp. with a pipepro nobody said the vantage wasn't reliable or had'nt proved it self, miller has proved it self also or mainline contractors like murphy bro's,US pipeline, wouldn't be using them over the vantages. 
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 21:38
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Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 21:47
nobody's memory is perfect!!! even though some think it sould be. i wouldn't worry to much about it!! some people getoff when they think they can belittle somebody with how much more they KNOW!!! i see alot of that on this forum. opinions are like *******s everybody got one right!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 09-10-2008 21:51
You forgot the last part of that saying.

"Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one and the only one that does not stink is your own."

LOL Just thought I would throw that into the mix.

"Don't sweat the petty, pet the sweaty."

jrw159 :-)
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 21:57
you got that right
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-11-2008 02:35
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Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-11-2008 03:21
dude i made a post few hours ago that stated everybody cannot remember everything they done in life time nor can everybody keep up with which contractors still in business and there's all way's someone looking to belittile someone else's knowledge. im going to go ahead and say it JTMcC you are superior to me and steve i don't even deserve to be on the same forum as you, i will quit posting for now on, you can take over the steering wheel. 
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-11-2008 03:32
Me too. :-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 09-10-2008 21:52
Maybe its not lemonade? :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 22:12
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Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 09-10-2008 22:38
Let it roll on by Steve-o, let it roll on by. LOL

jrw159 :-)
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 09-10-2008 22:53
I don't know how old you are but   "not remembering"   gets worse!!

Griff   (53)
Parent - - By sbcmweb (****) Date 09-10-2008 22:59
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Parent - By snuffman (***) Date 09-10-2008 23:24
I see old people, thier all around me. LOL
Parent - - By ryan gaspard (**) Date 09-11-2008 00:53
sexton 26 got a ? i have a 300 vantage 07 model, had to use it to power my house i last week during the storm i put my settings all the way down i was told when i got back to work monday that i should have put all my seetings to max to get the best voltage and performance out of my machine what is your input on this seems like you know your buisness about welding machines. aanyone else with input please feel free to make a post, the way things are looking i might need it in the next couple of days as IKE makes his path in the gulf. thanks guys for any input.
Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-11-2008 02:03
ryan, im no expert on welding machines, i've used a few. when you hook into your aux.power wheather its a air compressor,grinder, 240,120. your amperage control souldn't matter unless your trying to weld and run a piece of equipment at the same time, you might have to compensate by turning up your amperage if its under the rated output nessary to run the equipment at the same time. hope this helps i may be wrong im sure somebody will correct me if i am.  kevin 
Parent - - By ryan gaspard (**) Date 09-12-2008 01:07
thanks kevin, i found my book and it states the sam thing. by the way i have 2000 sq ft heated and the vantage 300 pulled my whole house the time the power was out, my wife did have to watch what appliances she used at certain times ,but i am very well pleased with the machine. i would let it run 18 hrs a day then shut it down to refuel, about 10 gallons each fill up with the help of a little lucas fuel treatment. my need it again had to leave the port of iberia at 2 pm mandotory evacuation for ike. will post when storm is over again thanks kevin
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-12-2008 02:10 Edited 09-12-2008 02:16
be safe and good luck, glad i could help
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 09-11-2008 02:11
I can pretty much garantee that Murphy Bros isn't using Miller welding machines.

Or Lincoln for that matter.

They went out of business several years ago.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-11-2008 02:45
excuse me, they use to use miller machines to power the crc evan bugs to build mainlines and they were in business 2004 thats not several years ago sorry for missleading anybody i wasn't aware they went out of bussiness you sure they didn't change names since halliburton was there parent company
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 09-11-2008 18:57
Gents....................why the thin skin??  Let's take posts at face value and not read something personal into them................ take a deep breath, get a grip and realize..............if we post up somthing that's erroneous or a stretch.......due to WHATEVER, poor memory etc., and someone corrects it: it's the INTERNET fro crying out loud.  Let's enjoy it a little more and ***** and moan a little less.
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-11-2008 21:13
noted, i've been reading post on here for a long time there's good advice coming from everyone on here some better than others but that what its about open disscusion and there's nothing wrong with a little debate aslong as it don't get outta control everybody gets rubbed the wrong way ever no again espeically welders i appologize for the back and forth with JTM i don't think it was personal
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 09-10-2008 21:41
JTMcC, im curious to why you think the high 3600RPM is annoying on the pipepro??
Parent - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 09-10-2008 18:54
sbcmweb, I have welded with a Commander 500.  I loved every minute of it.  I had to fight tooth and nail every night I work at that job just so I could have it.  The forklift ops weren't happy when they would have to go off trackin it down for me.  Real crisp arc and steady never a hiccup or burp.  Tried buying it from the company the piping superintendent just laughed at me for even thinking that they would allow me to buy it from them.
Parent - By Oregon Jake (**) Date 09-11-2008 00:04
I think Miller just went up a notch in my book.
Parent - - By Oregon Jake (**) Date 09-10-2008 19:50
It's weird that the Lincoln Electric China link stopped working the day after I posted.  Maybe they moved the factories back here.
Parent - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 09-10-2008 20:13
That would be cool.
Parent - By gshuma (**) Date 09-10-2008 20:27
It's not wierd at all. You can be sure that they pulled it.
I recently worked for a pipe machine manufacturer, been around for 5 generations. My job was to source parts from China. They were then assembled here and painted the company color. Yes sir...buy from us made in the good ol USA.
Parent - - By Oregon Jake (**) Date 09-11-2008 00:00
Yeah, that's weird.  That's really petty of Lincoln Electric if they really did pull their China website because of the post.  Earlier today I typed in "Lincoln Electric China" into Google Images and there were still pictures of the factories.  I just checked again and the factory images are now pulled too.  When the site was up, there was a flash animation communist Chinese flag waving right by the Lincoln Electric emblem. 

I wonder why Lincoln Electric dosen't want us to know about where our welder parts and consumables are coming from?     
Parent - By RioCampo (***) Date 09-11-2008 02:24
I think it is because they know welders take more pride in american made products. The working class of americans has dwindled to nothing. But it was forced on us by corporate and government.
With the drastic increase in cost of goods I think a lot more people are looking american made products instead of grabbing the first thing on the shelf. Why should we pay 29.95 for a china made part when the american made one is just 32.99? We can't get everything made in usa anymore, but we can support the companies that keep working class american in america. If lincoln has to stoop to cutting off their own advertising, it will bite them on the but eventually.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 09-11-2008 03:00
   In electronic equipment, many of the actual components have been made someplace cheaper than the US for decades, even if circut boards are assembled here.

   Large manufacturing companies have operated plants making the same products all over the world for a long time too. There are 2 factors forcing the closure of the plants in the parts of the world that are not the cheapest to operate in. The factors are: 1) Economics of competing with products made in the countries with lower costs.  2) Corporate greed. You decide how much of each is responsible.

   Nobody gives a hoot if Your expensive watch is made in Switzerland, Your camera is made in Germany or Your sports car is made in Italy, but You are suposedly unpatriotic if You buy Chinese made goods.

    China now has a reputation much like Japan had in 1960, for making poor products copied from someone else. Get used to the idea, China can and in fact does make some top quality products, but not for bottom of the barrel prices.

     It will probably be quite a while before being "Made in China" will be thought of as a good thing, but when they have moved up the supply chain, and some other developing country is making cheaper and worse products, it will happen.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Lincoln or Miller made in USA anymore?
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