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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Preheat for API-1104
- - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-14-2008 21:24
I am working in a fab shop. We are prefabricating some X70 pipe spools for some pipeline facilities. The WPS requires preheat of 250 deg F. The client is concerned about hydrogen cracking.

My question is this: Where is the appropriate place to verify preheat? I have heard that the correct place is 180 degrees away from where the welding will begin and 2" away from the groove. Is there any standard that addresses this?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-15-2008 00:54
The short answer is three inches to either side and in front of the weld is typical.

Your WPS or QC manual should have that type of information listed in it.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-15-2008 14:59
Interesting indeed....

If memory serves me well: B31.3 states 25mm and B31.1 states 75mm.
EN standard all calls for the verification to be measured 75mm from the edge of the groove.

Is X70 prone to HIC, what is the ceq?

3.2
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-16-2008 00:38
Different welding standards have different requirements as you pointed out. The specific welding standard should be reviewed to see what is necessary.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 09-16-2008 01:18
He's not talking about 31.3 - it's 1104

To tell you the truth, I like mine at least 300 degrees.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-16-2008 07:19 Edited 09-16-2008 07:31
ups...
Did not notice that :O
Then its a matter of simply look in API-1104

And Al is correct, it should be stated on the WPS.

3.2
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 09-16-2008 01:19
3.2 inspector, I wanted to ask you a question: do you weld?
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-16-2008 07:18
No - why?

3.2
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-20-2008 21:27
No - why did you ask?

3.2
Parent - - By vagabond (***) Date 09-16-2008 01:59
I agree with Al as far as where to check pre-heat and it should be spelled out in the WPS.  250 is a good rule of thumb for carbon,  but I always make my guys use a temp stick nothing else.  I had a guy one time came in with a little infra-red temp gun he bought at Auto Zone for 30 bucks.  The AI on the job measured a cup of coffee right out of the microwave at two different distances about 4" away and about 2' away.  Over 75 degrees difference in the readings,  the moral of this story is a temp stick in most cases is more reliable of course.  He told me the really good infra-red guns are accurate, but only if they are used correctly etc.  I'll stick with temp sticks,  the biggest problem is the guy who preheats than runs a couple of beads,  goes out for a smoke and takes a bathroom break,  then BS's with Joe for 10 minutes on the way back.  Of course he doesn't stop to preheat again before he starts welding. . . . . . .
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-16-2008 12:22
Good points about the IR thermometer. They are calibrated for black body emissions. They are fairly accurate if you are checking carbon steel that still has mill scale or "rust" on the surface, but on materials such as aluminum, stainless steel, or nickel alloys, they don't perform as well.

I was working with a nickel alloy and checked it with both the IRT and a thermal couple, there was about a 175 degree difference in the temperatures recorded by the two methods.

I usually use the thermal couple because it leaves no residue and thus, no contamination. Overall, the thermal couple is less expensive than the Tempil sticks and the crayons tend to break down over time.

Different materials require different preheat, if any. It is best to consult the appropriate welding standard to make sure you don't preheat something that doesn't require preheat or something that shouldn't be preheated.

You are absolutely correct about the failure of some welders to understand why we preheat carbon steels. I would place a sizable bet on the line that these are the same individuals that still believe the "sweat" is moisture entrapped within the metal and that preheat is needed to "dry" the steel before welding. They further believe that once the steel is dried, it is fine to allow it to cool before welding it. I've made good money over the years repairing their mistakes when I still earned my living with a welding hood and still make money witnessing the repairs as an inspector.

I've said it before and it still is true, the contractor's (or welder's) ignorance is the basis of my profit.

The Navy is on the right track with their requirement that the welders be trained and tested on the workmanship requirements of the fabrication standards before being turned loose on a project. It's like the old advertisement for oil filters, "Pay me now, or pay me later." Thorough training, while expensive, is less expensive than the repair of rejected work.

More and more fabricators are starting to see the validity and need for welder training. It isn't enough that the welder can deposit a "sound weld" any longer. They need to understand the reason "why" they are required to do things in a certain way. The number of training classes I teach is on the rise and the fabricators wouldn't ask me back if it didn't make a difference in their "bottom line" at the end of the year. 

The training offered by people like Lawrence and Henry can not be appreciated until their students go to work for different companies and they take on leadership roles. "Education pays" is an understatement.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-16-2008 20:21
Thanks guys. Yes we use a temp stick. The IR thermometers are acceptable but they have to be calibrated to the surface we are checking. Too much trouble so we just use temp sticks and we are doing it 2" from the groove.
That seems to make everybody happy.
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 09-16-2008 22:06
What is the wall thickness? HIC usually doesn't occur in thinner sections that have a slower quench rate ie .250, .375 that has been perheated.
Parent - By NDTIII (***) Date 09-16-2008 23:06
.75"
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 09-17-2008 04:13
API 1104 Twentieth Edition 7.11 States that "The procedure specifications shall specify the pre- and post heat treatment practices to be followed when materials or weather conditions make either or both treatments necessary."

I don't see anything else in 1104 about preheat.

I know this is a different code, but, D1.1 5.6 states that preheat and interpass temp. shall be maintained during welding operations for a distance at least equal to the thickness of the thickest part  (but not less that 3 in.) in all directions from the point of welding.

Min interpass temp requirements shall be considered equal to the preheat requirements, unless otherwise indicated on the WPS.

The preheat and interpass temp shall be checked just prior to initiating the arc for each pass.

That's pretty much how I have always done it as a welder before I had access to codes, so it must be fairly common practice.
Parent - By Nanjing Date 09-17-2008 06:42
API guidelines for the chemical, oil and gas industries states preheat shall be applied throughout the entire thickness of the weld a minimum 3" either side of the weld so if you are welding API pipe you should follow this.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Preheat for API-1104

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