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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding high thicknesses pipes 45 to 120 mm thick
- - By batanony (*) Date 09-21-2008 07:15
Hello everyone,

I have a problem and i hope you can help me on it.
We are welding large diameter boiler steels pipes (HI & HII) with high thicknesses from at least 45mm to more than 120mm thick.
The problem is, there is a huge distorsion associated with the process. In order to avoid this distorsion, the company decided to fix (weld) supports  on the surface of the pipe and remove them after the welding completion. As you would have expected, it leaves marks on the surface and considered a discontuity that may not be accpeted in codes or standards.
Now, the compay inspecting on us from Danemark said that it is not possible anylonger to use these supports.
Can anyone please suggest an alternative to reduce these distrsions without the use of external support?
Sorry, i don't have pics right now but i will post them later today ..

Thanks
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 09-21-2008 09:05
Hello batanony, have you folks looked into any of the pipe alignment clamps that are available. Generally these units are applied externally and don't require any welding to attach them. Mathey Dearman is one company that makes quite a few different choices of clamps that might work. Some of their clamps can even be left on while the welding is being done and then removed afterwards. There are likely many others too, if you do a little bit of searching. Possibly others on the site here will reply with any other particular brands that they have had success with. You may also wish to include the pipe diameter(s) so that folks will have a better idea of the scope of your challenge. Good luck on your search. Best regards, aevald
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 09-21-2008 10:44
Thanks aevald, the diameters are from 4 to 5 m.
I have checked the Mathy website and sent them an e-mail already. It is a very good start and i will search for similar brands as u said as of course  i will be waiting for other opinions or options here. Thanks again
batanony
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-22-2008 23:36
batanony,
the clamps are necessary but not sufficient when you weld a large cylinder like your 5 meters diameter boiler pipes. A suitable welding sequence is also necessary.
If you tell me your fax number (including country and area codes), I'll fax you a welding sequence that I've used successfully many times.
And now, let me ask you a question: you speak of boiler piping 5 m in diameter. Where is that so large pipe used in a boiler?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By spgtti (**) Date 09-23-2008 01:52
I wholeheartedly agree. Welding sequence is critical, no block welding. Clamps won't hold back the movement of heavywall. Proper bead placement and welded strongbacks will.
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-23-2008 08:56
I would very much like to hear that aswell :)

3.2
Parent - - By defaced (**) Date 09-23-2008 17:28
G.S.Crisi,
I just sent you a PM.
Thanks,
Mike
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-24-2008 18:57
batanony, defaced and 3.2 Inspector,
I don't think it's necessary a fax to describe the welding sequence I've used successfully back in my days of erector engineer to join the two halves of a large diameter petrochemical tower. I'll describe it hereinafer and you'll tell me if you've understood it.

1st case. The two pieces are in the vertical position and the weld is horizontal. The two ends have been already fit up.
First thing, you should apply tacks welds. The quantity and length of tack welds depends on the tower diameter. Your good judgment will tell you how many and how long. For batanony's 5 meters diameter pipe I would apply , say, 12 tacks 8 inches long each. Most important, the tacks should be applied by two welders working at the same time in positions 180º apart from each other, or by four welders working at the same time in positions 90º apart from each other. The tacks will remain in place during welding, so the necessary precautions must be taken.
After tacking, the first pass will start. The first pass should be applied by two or four welders working at the same time. If there are two welders, they'll be 180º apart; if there are four, they'll be 90º apart from each other. For batanony's 5 meters pipe I'd use four welders. They will start welding at the same time going clockwise or counterclockwise, and they should finish at the same time, or with a few seconds difference. So, the welding speed should be controlled.
After the first pass is complete, let it cool down, unless the WPS calls for a minimum interpass temperature.
The subsequents passes are given in the same way.

2nd case. The two pieces are in the horizontal position and the weld is vertical. The two ends have been already fit up.
The tack welds are applied in the same manner already described.
Now the first pass will start. In this case, you can only use two welders. The first welder will start at the 6 o'clock position and the second at the 9 o'clock position, both going upwards and working at the same time. At approximately the same time (or with a few seconds difference), the first welder will arrive at the 3 o'clock position and the second at the 12 o'clock position. For this, the welding speed should be controlled.
At this point, the first welder will keep on welding upwards to the 12 o'clock position, while the second will go down to the 6 o'clock position and start welding upwards to the 9 o'clock position. They should arrive at their respective final points at the same time (or with a few seconds difference). In this manner, the first pass will be completed. Most important: the welders should always work at the same time, don't let one being at work while the other is not.
Allow the first pass to cool down, unless the WPS calls for a minimum interpass temperature. The subsequent passes are given in the same manner.

Now take a pencil and a piece of paper and draw the welding sequence described above. You'll see that it's easeir than it seems to be when you read it for the first time.
Any doubt, Gentlemen?
Giovanni S. Crisi     
    
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 09-24-2008 19:56
nice
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-24-2008 20:32
Where is that so large pipe used in a boiler?

is what i would like to hear.

I dont need to hear an engineer telling me how to weld large diameter pipes, if one cant figure that out - he should not be deeling with such things....IMO

3.2
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-25-2008 00:06
3.2
upwards in this same list of postings you said the following: "I would very much like to hear as well".
I thought you were interested in knowing the welding sequence I was talking about, which wasn't the case. 
Please excuse me, it was my misunderstanding.
Giovanni S. Crisi

Parent - - By spgtti (**) Date 09-25-2008 01:49
   Not too suprising of a comment from someone whose around welding, thinks they know about welding but amazingly enough doesn't weld and isn't trained as an engineer. Get over it 3.2
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-25-2008 02:48
get over what?
Parent - By defaced (**) Date 10-01-2008 17:13
Thank you very much sir. 
Parent - - By gndchuck (**) Date 09-21-2008 11:45
I've used the dearman on a hyperbaric 24" pipeline repair.  The pipe was out of round about 1.5 inches, straightened right out, dearman says that it will make a pipe that is up to 2 or so inches out of round, round again.  For the application that we used it for, we had to fabricate arm extensions because of the particular preheat pads and insulation that had to be used.  I remember that there was a couple of other companies out there that offered similiar clamp, but the names escape me at the moment. 

Charles Welch
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 09-23-2008 14:11
First of all, what process?
Second of all, these types of welds are made everyday without distortion control fixturing on them.
Thirdly, if I walked into a shop and saw excessive fixturing the first thing I'd assume is you don't know what you are doing.
If its a roll out with SAW just weld it up.
If its a 5G then flip flop it without too many layers on each side.
Alighment clamps won't help you at all with heat distortion. Thats not what they are intended to do.
The other thing is, too much fixturing can actually cause harm. Do you really wanna place som huge wazoo restricitve fixturing on something that big when most of the distortion is gonna happen in the first few passes. If it actually holds it, which I doubt, you may end up with excessive cracks from the strain. Which you already have enough of due to the size of the thing.
Parent - - By gndchuck (**) Date 09-23-2008 18:15
We were doing TIG.  The pipe had been made in India out of plate that had been rolled.  We had made the weld at -247 feet in a habitat, we didn't have any distortion as far as welding, we just used them mainly hold everything in place with removable arms so that we could take one off weld and replace it when we got to the other one.  Just the selling point for our purpose was if needed it could make out of round pipe round again.  On the ocean bottom you don't have many tools to use, and to pick up a pipeline is usually a no go.

Charles Welch
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 09-23-2008 19:12
Dearman's are excellent clamps. Very good for out of roundness and alignment. Exactly the right tool. But they ain't cheap. And the bigger ones are almost as heavy as my pick up truck.
But thicker walls and 'stiff' materials present problems.
Make sure your second tack is in the right spot. :)
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 09-28-2008 13:19
First of all, thank you all so much for the great and detailed discussion. I am sorry i haven't checked the forum earlier.
Second, i am sorry if i implied that these cylinders are used in boilers. No, i  meant the base metal of which they are manufactured is Boiler Steel HI and HII but they are actually used in cement mills and cement kiln.
I have attached some photos for further indication. Included are the supports which they are required to remove during welding as well as the hi-lo devices they are using to avoid the huge distortion.
Attachment: Largecylinders.JPG (0B)
Attachment: hi-locontroldevice.JPG (0B)
Parent - By dasimonds (**) Date 09-28-2008 21:39
Nice. I've worked on a few kilns myself. Looks like a nice setup.
Is that a trunion section?
Dale Simonds
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-29-2008 20:02
batanony,
you've mentioned your "Danish inspectors". If your plant is a cement one, then your Danish inspectors are F. L. Smidt, right?
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-29-2008 20:07
I would think so as well.

3.2
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 09-29-2008 20:29
Yes, you are right. It is the F.L.S Dansih company of inspection and by the way this work is done here in Egypt.
I just wanted to mention some more details. The cyinders are rounded by round blenders and the welding would be accomplished in a seam line horizontal position. So, the previous welding procedure is suggested cylinders in two halfs which is not the situation here. Any more ideas? 
thank u all :)
Mona El Batanouny
Parent - By 3.2 Inspector (***) Date 09-29-2008 20:35
Fls is not what you would can an inspection company, more like a turnkey contractor and operator of cement plants.

Sorry, I cant help you more than allready mentioned - mostly by others in this thread.

3.2
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-30-2008 00:12
Let me see if I understood well. After being rounded up, the two cylinders are fit up in the vertical position (so the weld will be horizontal) and then welded by submerged arc. Right? If not, correct me, please.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 10-01-2008 08:08
yes, u r perctly correct ..That's right G.S.Crisi..
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-01-2008 19:31 Edited 10-01-2008 19:49
OK, the weld is horizontal.
1st. Tack weld as I described above.
2nd. Put two submerged arc machines to work at the same time, located 180º apart from each other, going clockwise or counterclockwise. It's important that they start and finish at the same time (or with just a few seconds difference). Once started, the machines will rotate 360º continuosly until the weld is finished.

And now, I'll tell you my frank opinion. F.L.Smidt is known all over the world for being the most prestigious company in the world specialized in design and construction of portland cement plants. THEY should have handed to you the welding sequence of the cement kiln. It's THEY that have designed and made the kiln. It wasn't delivered to the job site in only one piece because of transportation difficulties. Now they have an erector engineer at site to supervise that everything is done according to their instructions and specifications. So, it's THEIR responsibility to furnish you their welding instructions and specifications.
Tell that on my behalf to the Danish engineer. And if he asks you who the hell I am, tell him that I happen to know F.L.Smidt since 1977, when our client had to buy a big ball mill and I was in charge of the bid. F.L.Smidt was one of the bidders. The successful bidder was eventually Kennedy Van Saun (KVS). Does the Danish engineer know F.L.Smidt since 1977? 
Giovanni S. Crisi
 
Parent - By batanony (*) Date 10-03-2008 19:28
I guess he does not really :) i will tell him anyway ...
Thank you again Crisi  and by the way, it was FLS who suggested using the alignment clamps as they said it is the latest technique used in welding thick cylinders.
Thanks again
Mona
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding high thicknesses pipes 45 to 120 mm thick

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