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Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / NH3 Anhydrous Ammonia Piping Question
- - By Jack Richey Date 09-23-2008 12:21
If used in a liquid ammonia (NH3) refrigeration system, is it possible for Sch 80 carbon pipe to absorb or otherwise interact with the hydrogen atoms in the ammonia, rendering the pipe extremely difficult to weld? In other words, is it possible for the carbon steel pipe to absorb atoms of hydrogen? Problem: Lincoln Fleetweld 1/8 6010+, brand new can; pipe with standard v-groove bevel, 1/8 root face, and is visually clean inside and out (cleaned with grinder mounted wire wheel inside and out); arc is completely unstable and extinguishes frequently and intermittently at lower amps when laying in the root pass. This same electrode burns just fine on a piece of carbon plate at same heat settings with same root geometry. Thanks in advance for any input.

Jack
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 09-23-2008 14:25
It seems to me you have to have a chemical reaction that seperates the hydrogen from the nitrogen rendering the hydrogen atomic, or it will never be absorbed. Such as the case with hydrogen sulphide.
Secondly, if hydrogen were your problem if you preheat the pipe the problem goes away because it will evolve out of the pipe.
Thirdly, 6010 has plenty of hydrogen already in it. Otherwise your flux would crumble.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-23-2008 19:32
Let a chemical engineer (me) give his opinion.
Liquid ammonia doesn't release atomic hydrogen, and solid carbon steel doesn't absorb it. Carbon steel absorbs hydrogen when it's in molten condition. That's why hydrogen is absorbed by the molten metal when you're welding with cellulosic electrodes.
On the other hand, carbon steel reacts with hydrogen sulphide because hydrogen sulphide is an acid, and carbon steel doesn't withstand acids, no matter how weak they are.
Chemical equation is: Fe + 2 H2S ---->  FeS2 + 2 H2. The chemical reaction between iron and hydrogen sulphide releases molecular hydrogen which is not absorbed by solid carbon steel.
Ammonia is an alkaly (or base) in the chemical language, i.e., the opposite of an acid, and iron doesn't react with alkalies.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 09-26-2008 23:45
Giovanni,
I would question your comment that "solid carbon steel doesn't absorb it (atomic hydrogen that is)".  I am using "carbon steel" here as a general reference to a wide range of steel types, that include plain carbon, high strength low alloy and so forth.  There have been many instances of steel failures in hydrogen environments.  Atomic hydrogen can absorbed by carbon steels, diffuse through it in all directions and likewise be given off by it, depending on conditions.  (The photo below/attached is a great example hydrogen being given off from two steel welds, one with a properly stored electrode and one from an electrode stored improperly.)  Drill pipe failures have been reported with the drill string merely hanging (not during drilling operations) in a well bore, where a strata of H2S may be noted.

Hydrogen problems can be likened to the "fire triangle", i.e., a triangle with the angles labeled (1) oxygen, (2) heat and (3) fuel.  Remove any one of the 3 and fire cannot be sustained.  The "hydrogen damage triangle" would have (1) hydrogen, (2) suseptible microstructure and (3) stress.  Take away any one and, in very basic terms, hydrogen damage is not seen.

You are correct that the big problem with welding is that hydrogen (from moisture or contamination in the welding environment) can readily be absorbed into the molten weld pool.  Upon solidification the amount of hydrogen (in this case atomic hydrogen) that can be retained is small compared with the molten state and this is where hydrogen damage comes into play.  Another potential source of hydrogen we see in the Offshore Industry is hydrogen charging of piping and structures due to improper set up of cathodic protection.  The system being used for corrosion protection actually can become the source of catastrophic failures due to hydrogen damage.

An opinion from a basic old welding engineer.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-29-2008 19:52
Fred,
read below Vittorio's comment and my reply to him.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 09-23-2008 20:02
It sounds like it might be possible for that line to become magnetized = arc blow
Parent - - By vittorio (*) Date 09-24-2008 08:50
Carbon Steel in  Anhydrous Ammonia can suffer from SCC (Stress Corrosion Cracking). there is a lot of literature on this issue and teh results of study is that the cracking was due to hydrogen embrittlement (hydrogen pickup of the steel.)

Stress-Corrosion Cracking of Steel in Liquefied Ammonia Service - A Recapitulation
http://www.nationalboard.org/NationalBoard/Articles/Classics/classic8.aspx

S

http://www.corrosionist.com
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 09-25-2008 19:31
Vittorio,
I've read the article whose site you've indicated and learned a lot. Although the SCC is due not to ammonia itself but to the air dissolved in it, the fact is that carbon steel in contact with liquid ammonia is subject to stress corrosion. It's impossible to avoid that some air dissolves in liquid ammonia when handling it since the right moment it leaves the reactor where it was made.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Up Topic Welding Industry / Metallurgy / NH3 Anhydrous Ammonia Piping Question

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