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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Filler Materials B31.3
- - By SFIENG (**) Date 09-30-2008 19:24
Hi all,

I would like a clarification on a requirement for filler metal impact testing per B31.3 and Section IX.  When performing a PQR that will be impact tested to -50F per B31.3 does the code require the filler metal be impact tested prior to the PQR impact testing?  Does the code allow the PQR to qualify the filler metal classification to be used in production at or above the temperature tested to without the actual wire being tested?

Thanks in advance!!
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 09-30-2008 20:34
You need to select a welding consumable that has the minimum desired properties. Go to ASME II Section C and you can look at the properties for eah consumable classification and make your selection.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 03:52 Edited 10-01-2008 03:55
Steve, check Table 323.3.1.  Section IX won't help you.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 12:19
The quick answer is no. It is not required that filler metal come with impact testing. B31.3 is concerned with the deposit properties, base metals, and HAZ.
For example, what good would it do to order filler metal with impacts tested at a temp higher than what you may need. You still will have to test the deposit. You still have to do the test anyway.
Now, consistent with what Nanjing stated, its probably a good idea to purchase filler that has been impact tested. You do need heat lot control. And if its been tested already its a good chance you'll have less trouble with your qual.
I recommend Ni steel fillers for the -50 or more regimes (though you can get C steels with -50 testing and very good impacts-but you want to have confidence that with the broader parameters of production welding you still have viable properties. ~-20 or so you can easily get by with good C Steel fillers.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 12:45
Check Table 1U in SFA-5.29, there are several FCAW fillers mentioned that go below -50F on impacts.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 13:02
And if you want an authority on cold ambient impact testing, Kazak jon is your man.  :)
Parent - - By SFIENG (**) Date 10-01-2008 14:45
All,

Thanks for all of your responses.  The filler that I am considering is E81T-1Ni1MJ H4.  Per SFA-5.29 this filler is good to -20F in the as-welded condition and -40F when PWHT is applied.  Additionally because of the supplemental "J" indicator the values are met at a test temperature 20F lower (Note d).  If I perform charpy impact tests on the PQR specimen in the as-welded condition at -50F and achieve the values listed in Table 323.3.5 of B31.3, does this qualify the filler metal to be used at -50F?  If it does qualify, is the filler limited to only the heat/lot that was tested or does it qualify the wire classification?

Thanks again!!   
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 15:37
As jon recommended you need to do a thorough examination of Table 323.3.3. having said that, if you perform impacts as required by the code at -50 and achieve the values as required by the code you are good.
Heat lot control is my recommendation not a code requirement of B31.3. Look at Table 323.3.1 A-4.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 15:58 Edited 10-01-2008 16:00
Steve, glad to see you did some extra research from last time we chatted. 

Many will disagree with this statement but historically, some FCAW materials have had difficulties meeting low temperature impacts.  Since you'll be running in the 3G, watch your heat inputs closely.

I think you've made a decent filler selection and as js55 mentioned, if your deposit meets -50F you're good to go.  I also would recommend heat/lot control but as mentioned by js55, it isn't a code requirement.

The one concern I have is you seem to be banking quite a bit on the PWHT bringing you down to the lower temperatures, do you intend to use the WPS only in the PWHT condition? 

Also, keep in mind your range of thickness is not governed by ASME IX in this case, you will only get 1/2t - t + 1/4" for your range iaw B31.3.
Parent - - By SFIENG (**) Date 10-01-2008 16:09
Hi Jon,

Yes I been flailing about with limited success.  Actually I don't want to perform PWHT at all if I can avoid it.  What leads you to believe that I am banking on using PWHT to meet the impacts?  What am I missing?
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 16:50
Well Steve, in your earlier post, you mentioned your filler is good to -20F in the as-welded and -40F in the PWHT condition with some extra because of "J" designator so while you're looking for -50F, it only seems natural that you'd be banking on the PWHT condition to get you down that low.  Keep in mind if the filler deposit fails impacts it's start over time... there are some fillers in the SFA-5.29 Table I mentioned that are good to as low as -100F.  Regarding the PWHT, what is the thickness of the parts you'll be fabricating?
Parent - By SFIENG (**) Date 10-01-2008 20:13
Ooooh, I see that!  My apologies.... :-)

I guess I am banking on the as-welded to -40F (with the "J" designator) making the trip at -50F during the PQR impacts.  I am in contact with the filler metal manufacturers and they believe that this is possible.  That is why I have been asking the questions about if the PQR impacts would qualify the filler metal classification. The procedures that I am trying to develop will be up to 3/4" as to not invoke automatic requirement of PWHT.  I don't want to PWHT unless I absolutely have to.
Parent - - By SFIENG (**) Date 10-01-2008 16:05
Js55,

I have thoroughly examined Table 323.3.1 (I believe this what you where referring to) and I am looking for clarification on how to interpret it. :-)  I am receiving a different interpretation from my customer and I want to sound somewhat knowledgeable during our discussion since I have not applied B31.3 in the low temperature environments.

I am trying to get a WPS in place quickly and I don't believe that I have the time to get filler material that has been tested with certs in a reasonable amount of time.  I would like to use filler that is readily available for the PQR and be qualified for production use based on the classification.

Does that make sense?  Any hang ups per the code?
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 10-01-2008 18:00
Have him show you where it says that filler needs to be supplied with impacts.
323.3.2 says "each product form", however it also ties into the list of product form specifications below. So how would you test filler metal to a pipe or forging spec? Which one would you choose if you tried?
Table 323.3.1 B-5 says "One piece from each lot of material", but Note 4 ties back into para. 323.3.2.
And A-4 still makes it clear, the only place that mentions filler metal at all clearly states "each type of filler metal (i.e., AWS E-XXXXclassification)", not each lot of filler metal.
Anybody have an interpretation stating otherwise?
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 10-01-2008 23:22
I would be very wary of using this rutile flux cored wire if there is a requirement for PWHT (Note in A5.29 there are only property requirements for the as welded condition). Have a word with a consumable manufacturer and ask if he will guarantee the impacts after PWHT.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-02-2008 12:10
Filler metal manufacturers are not going to garantee anything. However, keep in mind the PWHT time temp limitation kicks in with impacts.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 10-02-2008 01:55
js55, you are 100% correct, as usual!  You do NOT have to get impacts from the producer (even though it's a good idea) your PQR will qualify the whole shooting match; even in the nuclear world with ANI's, QA types and Auditor's breathing down my every movement I was permitted to operate this way but I did so with the clear understanding the my engineering judgment would be pushed down my throat (or elsewhere) if my impacts failed...
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 10-02-2008 12:12
Boy thats a fact jon. No matter what the code says someones gonna have to make an engineering decision and your feet will be in the fire.
Parent - By Nanjing Date 10-02-2008 22:20
I am amazed at this statement. I think you would have to be down right stupid not to put the consumable manufacturer on the spot and tell him that you need at least typical properties for his product. I get the impression that a number of people on this forum believe that if you do not deviate from the code everything will be OK. Try telling that to your management or your client when your production tests go t*ts up and the consumable manufacturer tells you that his wire is no good at -40 or you should not have stress relieved it as it's properties will degrade during PWHT.
Parent - - By tab_1999 (**) Date 03-16-2009 11:55
Have you been able to resolve your concerns?
I noticed a comment about low temperature service, The Code is pretty clear about the requirements for impact testing on cold temperature WPS/PQR qualification. some call it cryogenic but the temperature is specific.

I was just curious!
Parent - By Nanjing Date 03-17-2009 13:01
Probably been fired!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Filler Materials B31.3

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