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- - By peters077 (**) Date 10-05-2008 01:29
Ok I dont understand. Wat is the big deal with aircooled mach. On all the post i see it will say " dont even bother unless you have atleast a sa 200 or biger." someone correct me if i am wrong but a 2008 sa200 with the 4 cilinder KUBOTA has a rated output of 200 amps at 40 volts wiyh a duty cucle of only 60%. A 2008 BOBCAT 250 with the KOLHER eng has a rated output of 250 amps at 25 volts with a 100% duty cycle. And for some strange reason all the steal companys thati see eather union or not are all using small linclon like the ranger 8 and wicth is now the ranger 250 end the 305. as a matter of fact i went to work with a large mechan. contracter as a single hand welder to put in some steam lines and instead of a classic thay brought me a ranger 250 and we runn it all day everyday. I have a 65 model sa 200 that i git 6 years ago for a grand i then have a 2004 bobcat 250 that i got dirt cheap at a auction and i have a old ranger 8 that was give to me cause it did not run it does now just not any thing bigger that 1/8. I always thought that it was not the mach that put down the weld it was the person under the hood that is in controle of the rod that made it pass or fail. anyways some one just explain it to me so that i can be just a little smarter.   
Parent - By millerman (**) Date 10-05-2008 01:51
well from what i get the bobcat it cant run 1/4 rods allday  not real good on gouging a 250 is a like better but your loading the  h*** out of it
just my 2 cents
mac
Parent - By SMTatham (**) Date 10-05-2008 01:52
Do I detect a little chip on the shoulder?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-05-2008 02:05
There are limits to what you can expect from a welding machine.

The machine has to be capable of producing a certain voltage while it is under a load in order to maintain an arc, i.e., arc voltage at the "gun" or "stinger". There are voltage drops due to the length of the welding leads, loose or corroded connections, etc. They have to be accounted for in addition to the voltage required to maintain the proper arc length.

The equation E = 20 + (0.04 X I) is the approximate voltage (under a load, i.e., while welding) a welding machine will produce. So, a welding machine that is rated for 200 amps will produce about: E = 20 + (0.04 X 200) volts or about 28 volts while welding without due consideration to the length of the welding leads.

I ran into this problem a couple of years ago. The 200 amp air cooled welding machine (the manufacturer is not named because it wouldn't matter who built the machine) was your typical air cooled machine. It was used with about 250 feet of welding lead (he wasn't allowed to park on the pretty landscaped lawns) to reach the location where the welds were to be made. The welder could hardly maintain an arc using E7018 electrode.

The moral of the story is that a larger machine, capable of greater amperage was needed to provided adequate arc voltage because of the voltage drop from the cables and connections.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By peters077 (**) Date 10-05-2008 02:13
so what you guys are saying it does not matter 200 amp air cooled or  water is not big enough. I agree with that my ranger WILL NOT run 7018 5/32. and after 4 hours of 1/8 it is tired but i still dont understand why people judge the man by how much he spent on his mach.
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 10-05-2008 02:23
It's not judging by how much he spent on his machine.  It's judging whether he can run big rods all day.  I think you are specifically referring to Cactus and in building drilling rigs they are running a lot of big rod.  Burning hard all day.  I run a lot of big wire; same thing.  Day in and day out a small air cooled rig will not cut it for 10-12 hr work days (doing that type of work)  Don't get riled, it's about having the right tools for the job; not about what you spent on it. 
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-05-2008 17:47 Edited 10-05-2008 17:56
SMTatham       You are right on the money. As well as the fact of this, I have seen many welders come in with inadequate machines only to breakdown in the middle of something important. Then who is stuck ? ME ! Now after this happens I have to find another welder to take his position and the entire time The welder with the BOBCAT is whineing wanting to know if he still has a job if he runs down to Tractor supply and gets another machine ? So............... to make it simple, I get the right welders with the right welding machines the first time. Not to say the bigger machines wont have problems because they do. It is just less likely. AND, when they have problems your welding supply will generally come pick it up for repair and bring you a loaner. Tractor Supply and Home Depot will not do that ! Now at last. I may not have the most prefered machine out there but I run a Vantage 400. Some of my guys have Miller pipe pro. Some have a 300d Some with SA-250 & 200. I will challenge anyone on this forum to weld with a Bobcat or Ranger 8 against one of those machines. The reason I have a 400 Vantage is because some of the rods we have choked down my Vantage 300. I tried to by a 500 but it was to big for the area I have on my truck. I have now learned Lincoln has a Vantage 500 in a 300 frame. I'm gonna ask Santa for one ! I guess I am just the kinda of person who believes that if you are gonna do something. Then get the right tools for the job or hire the guy that has them. Bringing a Bobcat to a Rig Yard is like me taking my Harley to be worked on at the Honda Shop. IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN
Parent - - By makeithot (***) Date 10-05-2008 02:19
At 250ft one would assume that the amp/voltage drob would be siqnificant on a machine that small, what size of cable we're you using?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-05-2008 02:43
It was two years ago. I was the inspector, not the welder.

He could have used cables the size of your thigh and it wouldn't have made any difference. The machine was too small for the work that had to be done considering the length of the leads. While the drop would have been less had large leads been used, the voltage drop would have still been too much for the small machine and the machine simply didn't have the capability to maintain the arc voltage required for the diameter E7018 the welder was using. Plus, considering the resistance of the circuitry increases as the welding machine heats up from use, the voltage drops as resistance increases.

As eloquently stated before, you are not judged by the amount you spend on a machine, simply put, you are judged by the machine and whether it is capable of meeting the demands of the work.

It has long been said that a tradesman is judged by the quality of the tools he carries. A tradesman that shows up on the job ill prepared isn't highly regarded by his peers, be they welders, carpenters, or inspectors.

I like the episode on "Ice Road Truckers" where one driver shows up wearing Artic gear, well worn, and ready to go to work. The other driver shows up wearing a light jacket and a new briefcase. Which one do you think was the successful driver? It reminds me of the welder that shows up wearing nothing but new sneakers, jeans, a t-shirt, and no welding hood or leathers. Things never improved for him either.

Dress for the work and tool up for the job at hand.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By peters077 (**) Date 10-05-2008 03:14
ok  you guys are saying that it just wont handle the big rod .today for example me and a buddy built a hydrolic dove tail for his semitrailer to load his dozer on we both ran a mach 150 foot of cable a peice and ran nothing smaller than 5/32 7018 and jet we ran 5 hrs non stop till lunch we took about an hr then back up and running the only time either mach idled down was wen one of us had to go get more rod and both the sa 200 and the bibcat 250 did just fine. I realize that the bobcat will not last near as long as the sa 200 will but it is wat 25% of the cost of the pieliner i still just dont understand they al work the same unless it is a wore out peice of ?$!? but you can normaly see that befor it even starts up
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 10-05-2008 03:44
peters077:
                Part of the point these guys are making is that the SA200 is rated at 40 volts while the small frame machines are rated at 25 volts. They are NOT being measured with the same stick. As long as the machine has more power than You need, this isn't an issue.

                 Another part, which I can't personally vouch for, is there seems to be an idea that a guy with an SA200 will complete a given pipline joint in less time than with any other machine, particularly a small frame machine.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 10-05-2008 17:45
Another thing about the voltage is the volts/amp rating of the machine is at the lugs. Add 100 feet of lead and the voltage starts to drop. When running a 3/16 70+ you need at least 24 to 28 volts at the stinger.  A 25 volt machine may weld for a little while at the upper end of its range, but the machine will not last long. And the newer generation of air cooled engines and welding machines have a lot going for them. But a lot of SA 200 run 240 and 50 which runs 24 to 30 volts all day, day in and day out for years. These machines have proven themselves as well as all the liquid cooled machines.
BABRT's
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-05-2008 18:16
peters077  Bring your Bobcat to my yard. I will give you a test in the flat position. Burn 10 rods on 1" plate and I will hire you ! The rods are normal rods we use every day nothing special. 1/4 7024 jet or 7/32 7024 jet (your choice) Then maybe you will understand what the difference is
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-05-2008 19:07
thats cheating can i get a test like that with my briggs and straten drivin ac/dc 225 lincoln cracker box lol
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-05-2008 19:14
Shad I didnt know you had such a big machine !
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-05-2008 19:19
it ill burn 3/8 and 7/16 rods all day every day wanna race? you should see it gouge. rick came buy and is now the proud owner of a back up machine once he takes possession of it he will have no excuses fobreak downs lol he said him and his oldest boy were gonna restore it he also said you are a great guy to work for
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-05-2008 20:47
He is always tryin to suck up! ha ha
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-06-2008 02:07
it's all ur tatts that scare them but we all know the truth he told me he needed a beveler the other day and told me what he gave for it oooooooooooooooooouch that sucks i gave 800 for my 3-8
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-05-2008 19:21
tell your guys up there i have a sa 250 gas big frame machine with 200+ft of leade for sale 4,000 it's in excellent shape and rund n welds great also selling my 68 redfaceneeds restoring 2,000
Parent - - By shorthood2006 (****) Date 10-05-2008 22:37
i thought that you had a coleman generator with a crackerbox plugged into it...chad!
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-06-2008 02:02
thats my back up machine
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 10-05-2008 22:51
OUCH! I dont let anything less than a 400 amp machine run 1/4 or larger.
Saw a guy years ago when I started in tanks try to run a old SA 200 with the 1/4" with the machine set Max and Max. Machine ran for about three days then the windings gave up. The Red Seal ran away and blew up. You are doing old fashioned welding and there aint no substitute for cubic engines.
A 300 will run 1/4 but you will have breakdowns. Most of the guys will burn 60-80 pounds of rod a day doing the floor and corner weld. A 1/4 7018 is runs about the same as the 7/32's. I have never tried to light up a big rod with one of the aircooled engines, but it would be interesting to see if one could even light up a 7.
Parent - - By peters077 (**) Date 10-06-2008 02:48
OK we will see wat i can do about coming to see you. Now I understand that if you are going to run big rod all day than yes you need a big mach. but if your not i dont see the big deal with running a smaller mach. but wen you take your big mach. off your truck and put on the small one everyone looks at you like your a wanna be. I just think you should give a guy a chance first be befor you assume he is a pretender. i haved worked more than one place that will not let you runn anthing but 1/8 no matter wat. and they pay real good  just have to wait till they biuld a new one or it breaks and they dont break that often. Like i said befor i do have a 65 200 that looks like poo but it starts every time i push that magic little button. I just dont drag it everywhere i go . And if i could get me a steady job that paid good i would go get me a new vantage buddy of mine got one and i do love it

OH and CACTUS do i get to preheat the plate first LOL. and flat or horrizontal isnt that the only way you are supose to run 7024 rods.  
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-06-2008 23:06
Pre heat ?   Running those rods will preheat enough.   And 7024 is a flat only
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-06-2008 23:45
It would appear that the procedure he is working to does not require preheat. LOL
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-07-2008 09:47
It is not a question of procedure. It is a fact of a I dont think a Bobcat will even light up those rods. And by the off chance it does, It will not burn it in right and it certainly won't last a day doing it.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-07-2008 13:30
Cactus,
  I am well aware of your reasoning behind not wanting these machines on a big job, and I can agree with that. In my mind that is perfectly understandable.

My comment was geared towards "PRE-HEAT" which arose in a previous question by someone else, and from your statement it appears that pre-heat is not required??

jrw159
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-07-2008 18:40
No problem. Im still trying to get Mr. Bobcat to understand. Im not sure he really beleives me or anyone else for that matter
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-07-2008 18:57
Some men you just can't reach. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By pipeliner 798 (**) Date 10-07-2008 19:20
i agree, i believe he falls under the "if i have to explain, you want understand"
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-07-2008 19:26
Yep :-)
Parent - By banshee35 (**) Date 10-08-2008 16:51
hey, hey, strother martin! cool hand luke is probably one of my most favorite movies!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-07-2008 19:53
Cactus,
  I was just looking through my newly aquired API 1104 (thank you) and came across something that is right in line with your thinking. I do not beleive D1.1 addresses it this way, and I do not recall if B31.1 or B31.3 addresses it, but here we go.

API 1104 4.1 Equipment

Welding equipment, both gas and arc, shall be of a size and type suitable for the work and shall be maintained in a condition that ensures acceptable welds, continuity of operation, and safety of personnel. Arc-welding equipment shall be operated within the ranges given in the qualified welding procedure. Gas-welding equipment shall be operated with the flame characteristics and tip sizes given in the qualified welding procedure. Equipment that does not meet these requirements shall be repaired or replaced.

Now it appears to me that through your prior experiances and knowledge of this field you have determined that certain machines are NOT of suitable size and type for this project and will NOT provide continuity of operation.

FWIW it makes sense to me.

jrw159
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-08-2008 01:45
AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 02:03
so i guess my pinto rig wnt cut so much for saving on gas oh well fire up the dodge load the 200 latch on to the trailer with another 200 ( just in case) and go north when it cools off some more
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 10-08-2008 18:30
I'll second that!
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 01:54
I believe ya cactus i've run them and in my book they are a waste of money the only way i'd own 1 would be long enuff to resale it or maybe a paper weight
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-08-2008 02:00
I owned one too !! I used it to power my Tattoo Gun when I went camping. What else are ya supposed to do with'em ?
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 02:06
roflmao that was good can i get a tatt too lol
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-08-2008 02:29
From what Rick told me with your size, you would need about a gallon of ink.  Oh what the h*ll. Yours is on the house
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 02:37
lol 6'9'' tall 257 lbs just dip me in the bucket lol at least i dont need a ladder very often. ask the guy with the el camino if he wants to buy my pinto rig for a back up
Parent - - By snuffman (***) Date 10-08-2008 02:41
John Wayne
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 06:19
lol
Parent - - By gshuma (**) Date 10-08-2008 13:47
Hey rafter you can laugh at those small welders but let me tell you this story.
Nearby on Lake Erie is a marina with long small boat docks. No one here could get their stinger out to the end of the docks (way out).
I showed up with my Toyota and a borrowed row boat with an old Roughneck c clamped to the middle seat.
I parked beside a duelly and with a 300D who laughed at me. I rowed out to the end, welded for about an hour (6011 cracks and some gussets). I rowed back in, charged them for a day laughted back at the duelly guy and went home.
Those small welders are worthless for all day work but sometimes they can make you some money.
By the way..I paid 250 for the welder borrowed the boat and charged them 700 bucks.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-08-2008 13:55
Gshuma,
  I know you replied to Rafter, but if you don't mind, I can certainly agree that small machines do indeed have their "niche" in this industry. They are very usefull in many areas and applications.

They for sure have their place, but there are for sure places they have no business being.

JMHO :-)

BTW, glad to hear you came out good on that job. It is always nice to turn a profit, and a few heads at the same time. LOL

Best regards,
jrw159
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 20:24
the guy with the dually should of had more lead i could of reached it i have been to the top f the derrick with my lead and still some left on the truck i carry extra jsut for that reason and yeah i laugh at them trying to make it on a big job but for lil stuff use them if ya got them for small stuff and like you said you only welded for an hour so in an hour it wasnt even warmed up yet but hey good for you and your floater i hope you do well with your bussiness i really do but they just dont hold up to the big rod cut and dry plain and simple the 6011 is rated at 60,000 psi but for strength and les brittleness you should have used 7018 sooner or later the 6011 will crystalize and break and that makes you look bad IMHO and 700 bucks for an hour is hiway robbery i could see a 4 hour minimum but not 700
Parent - - By gshuma (**) Date 10-09-2008 11:17
Rafter
The guy in the duelly was a friend who got the the job and he already had almost 500 ft of lead. I don't have a welding "business" I do machine repairs so I happened to have a small welder that I keep mostly for a generator.
The 700 bucks that I charged them was cheap compared to the 5800 bucks that a marine firm wanted. They would come in with a barge, captain, mate, deckhand, and a welder.
The customer wrote a check on the spot and was happy to do so.
My point was this: One size machine does not fit all. If you are pounding away all day long then you need a heavy duty machine that won't let you down. If you are only doing farm or railing repair then a small machine will work just fine.
I always send the big jobs to my friend above.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-09-2008 18:57
that point was made  few days ago and then proven when he stated he tried burning big rod wit the bobcat and it petered out if thry're makin 7oo an hr up there i'm movin we kno the lil rigs cant cut it with big so we toiok it and ran with it you shouldnt take things so seriously it'll make u old fast
Parent - - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 10-08-2008 20:40
at 700 a day maybe you should take your floater and try some off shore work
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 10-08-2008 23:32
Im with Shad. You should row offshore ! They always need marine welders and that last hurricane tore'em all to hell out there. You should easily get $2000.00 an hour for a seaworthy welding vessel such as yours.
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