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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / D.1.1 & ASME code
- - By George-kh (**) Date 10-26-2001 16:31
Question one:
In D.1.1 section 3 Figure 3.4 all the single-V-groove welds are back gouged. Does it mean that a full penetration single-V-groove weld did not consider a complete joint penetration?
For example, a ½ in. pipe can not be back gouged. It doesn’t consider a complete joint penetration?

Is it same for ASME SEC. VIII?
Can we consider a full penetration single-V-groove weld without back gouging as a “number one joint efficiency”?

Question two:
D.1.1 section 4 doesn’t consider Combination of welding procedure contrary to ASME SEC. IX. Why?

QW-200.4 in ASME SEC. IX, is only about Combination of welding procedures. In accordance with QW-404.4, Filler metal F-Number, E6010 & E7018 have different F-Numbers; and according to QW-253 F-Number is an essential variable. Sometimes we use combination of E6010 & E7018 electrodes. Must we use QW-200.4 for this case?

Question three:
Pressure parts have more stresses and risks and consequently are more dangerous But D.1.1 is more fastidious than ASME SEC. IX. Why?
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 10-26-2001 20:24
Figure 3.4 of AWS D1.1 only shows the prequalified full penetration groove welds. If you want to use a full penetration groove weld joint design that is not shown there, you can if you qualify it.

I have also noticed that AWS D1.1 has much more strict guidelines in some areas than ASME IX. I can't tell you why, but I'm sure that a lot of the newer & stricter guidelines came out of the Northridge Earthquake failures that were studied.

G. Roberts
Parent - - By - Date 10-26-2001 22:08
In part reply to Question 1:

According to ASME VIII, single sided welding that results in the same quality of weld without back gouging, as you will obtain with back gouging is considdered to be the same a double sided weld.

In ASME VIII, while the quality of the weld is a contributing factor to the joint efficiency of a weld, it is primarily determined by the extent of the radiography.

In reply to your last question:

I believe that D1.1 when taken as a whole, is much more "lenient" than ASME IX. (General use of pre-qualified procedures etc.) Because this more lenient aspect of the welding section of D1.1 is used most widely, it does not address all the issues that ASME IX does with respect to the qualification of procedures.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-26-2001 22:47
Just to complete Niekie's third paragraph:
- with no radiography, the joint efficiency to be taken into account when calculating the pressure vessel wall thickness is 0.70
- with spot radiography, it is 0.85
- with full radiography, it is 1 (one)
Attention though! Before selecting which coefficient to use, the pertinent Code paragraphs should be carefully read. Sometimes the Code leaves to the discretion of the vessel designer the radiography extent, but in other cases full radiography is mandatory, as for example when the vessel will contain lethal fluids.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By George-kh (**) Date 10-29-2001 14:40
Thanks for all replies.
Somebody might answer question two.

Parent - By boilermaker (**) Date 11-27-2001 17:13
In addition to Mr. Giovanni,

Percent efficiency
Double-welded butt joints, Full RT-100%
Spot 85%
No 70%
However,
Single welded butt Joints, (leaving backing strip)
Full RT-90%
spot 80%
no 65%

Fillet weld lap joints and single welded butt cirvumferential joints, 100%
Full RT of all joints 1 1/2" thick or greater
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-05-2001 23:31
So far nobody has answered Question 2, so I'll give you my opinion. If it's wrong, someone please correct me.
ASME IX is directed primarily (although not exclusively) to pipe and plate welding. AWS D.1 is directed primarily (although not exlusively) to structural steel welding.
You've mentioned mixed welding, i.e., that employing E6010 for the first pass and E7018 for the subsequent ones. This is a technique I have used extensively back in my days of erector engineer for welding carbon steel pipe, especially (although not exclusively) when welding oil and gas pipelines. Why? Because those welds are subjected to radiographic inspection and E7018 is the indicated electrode. However, E7018 has poor penetration properties, so the first pass is given with E6010 (or E7010) whose penetration is excellent. Once you've got the proper penetration, the subsequent passes may be given with E7018.
On the other hand, AWS D.1 is for structural steel, where most weldings are fillet ones, which are not radiographed, so you can use directly E6010. When you have butt welds, such as for joining two steel shapes (H, or channel, or T, or angle) together, you can weld from both sides of the steel to assure good penetration, which obviously you can't do in a pipe.
So, when welding structural steel you don't need to use the mixed welding technique, and that's why AWS D.1 doesn't take it into consideration. On the other hand, as ASME IX applies to pipe, where the mixed welding technique is extensively used, it's taken into account in that Code, and also, although you havn't mentioned it, in API 1104.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By George-kh (**) Date 11-09-2001 11:53
Mr. Giovanni S. Crisi

Thanks a lot for your reply.
However, complete joint penetrations such as T-, K- and y- grooves are mentioned in D.1.1:2000 , table 4.1. so we can not say D.1.1 is just for fillet and butt welds, such as joining two steel shapes (H, or channel, or T, or angle) together that we can weld from both sides of the steel to assure good penetration, which obviously we can not do it in a pipe.
Also GTAW is a welding process that is mentioned in D.1.1:2000-4.1.2.
As I know, GTAW is used just for root pass; otherwise it will not economical.

Very truly yours
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 11-09-2001 16:21
I'll throw in my opinion too. As Prof. Crisi said, structural steel doesn't normally utilize a combination of processes to make most welds and I also think that is why D1.1 doesn't specifically address that. However, D1.1 does not say you can't combine processes. It does say what you do must be prequalified or qualified meaning that all applicable portions of the code must be complied with.
ASME IX addresses combinations of processes because it is more common to do that in that type of work. However ASME doesn't say you must use combinations.

CHGuilford
Parent - By thomas_1999 Date 12-06-2001 14:43
I'm wondering if there is a little confusion as to what these code books are for? If I remember correctly, ASME Sect. IX is for "Qualification" of welders & procedures. AWS D1.1 is used in the design of welded structures as well as Qualification. First, mixed welding is not only dependent on your needs but also the weld joint design.
I'm sure that you are aware that 6010 is a fast freeze rod which makes life a lot easier in not only penetration but filling a gap. If your Qualified to use F4 your Qualified to use ALL lower F numbers.
Whatever the choice, you must have a qualified procedure either prequalified or otherwise.
ASME has a very stringent acceptance criteria for "piping" because in ASME this usually carries a product with the volume, flow etc. controlled, otherwise 3 pounds of rod in the groove would restrict flow & lack of penetration would contribute to an early failure. Also, AWS STRUCTURES don't often "if ever" carry a product.
Hope this helps a little.
Parent - By chall (***) Date 11-27-2001 21:53
Part 2 of question 1: If the weld meets the acceptance criteria of UW-35 and is proven by RT examination - yes. Otherwise, if you look at Table UW-12, it seems the answer to your question is no. 0.60 is the highest efficiency you may get from a single welded butt joint without backing (type 3 joint). I believe the intent of Section VIII is require RT before you may consider the efficiency 1. Bear in mind that you must have a qualified procedure with open root.

Part 2 of question 2: As long as you have a PQR to support each of the filler metals/base metal combinations you may combine procedures. You are limited by base metal thickness for each PQR (reference in QW-200.4 to QW-451), and for deposited weld thickness. We have one PQR that includes 6010 for the root & hot passes and 7018 for the remainder. It eliminates the need to become an ASME lawyer. If you are interested, there is an ASME Section IX guide that helps explain some of the confusion: CASTI Guidebook to Sec. IX, author Mike Houle. May be purchased by calling (780) 424-2552.

Question 3: Pressure parts have more uniquely defined stresses as compared to structural welds. There is a lot of readily available engineering to contemplate. Unfortunately, the welding industry has created a pecking order with structural welders at the bottom and pipe/tube welders at the top. True, pressure vessels contain potential energy and lethal products, but I think we can all agree that fracture critical bridge members can be just as deadly if a weld fails (as a boiler). I used to think structural members were "less important" than pressure part welds. That belief was based on my own ignorance. To answer the question, perhaps AWS is aware of the hierarchy that puts structural welders low on the pole and because of that, they set the acceptance standards higher in an attempt to weed the worse welders out. Sorry for the soap box, Charles Hall
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / D.1.1 & ASME code

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