Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Domestic vs. US Origin Material Certification
- - By gsi (**) Date 10-29-2008 09:47 Edited 10-30-2008 14:09
We are in receipt of Contract documents from an owner with a US address and the language in these documents, they are asking for all steel products to be of domestic origin. My understanding of this statement would lead me to look on the MTR's for the words" Melted & Manufactured in the USA" this has always been the direction I have gone. Doesn't make it correct but I'm looking to see if anyone else has had this understanding.

Thanks
David
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-29-2008 12:16
I regularly do third party inspection of Bridge fabrication work.  Whenever Federal Funds are involved, the" Made and Melted in the USA " is required to be on the MTRs  Part of the "Buy America Act".  Not just Steel, but all products, such a bolts, studs and fastener components.  I have seen the requirements pertain to rubber, fabric and paint, although the word "melted" does not apply to them.
Parent - - By gsi (**) Date 10-29-2008 12:53
When you see the word Domestic should we take that as USA
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 10-29-2008 20:12
GSI

NO!  It must say melted and made in the USA.  I have one right now arguing that it was pipe melted and made into pipe in Finland, then redrawn in the USA,    AND, since Finland is part of NATO, and the USA is part of NATO, therefore it should be acceptable.

Joe Kane
Parent - By CHGuilford (****) Date 10-29-2008 22:02
And in other cases some folks argue that NAFTA countries comply with M&MUSA.  But that doesn't fly either.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 10-29-2008 15:46
I take Domestic origin to mean Melted and manufactured in the USA, if i do not see the statment melted and manufactured in the US or a Country of origin i question it.
MDK
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 10-29-2008 21:58
You have it right.

If your contract states "domestic", we understand that to mean "Melted and Manufactured in USA" (M&MUSA) is required.

If your MTR states "domestic", that is not proof that it was M&MUSA so the material might not be in compliance with your contract.  Only the M&MUSA statement is taken as assurance of compliance.  The reason?  "Domestic" to a Chinese company means "Made in China".

However, contract writers should spell it out so there are no assumptions made.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 10-29-2008 23:22
Gentlemen,
let someone who's not a US resident make a question to clear up his mind.
If a pipe is made in Cochinchina (here in Brazil "Cochinchina" means any part of the world) according to ASTM A-106, a plate is made according to ASTM A-515, a shape is made according to ASTM A-36, and their manufacturers hand you a certificate of the tests that have been made at the steel mill proving that the material obeys strictly the requirements of those standards, what's the difference between those pieces of material and other ones "melted and made" in the USA? I don't see any. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil  
Parent - - By trapdoor (**) Date 10-30-2008 04:01
It could either be for quality or to keep the flow of money in the country, not that it makes that much differance. So far I have only seen this requirement on government funded projects in the US.
Parent - - By Chris Nichols Date 10-30-2008 04:53
Hello all.  I haven't posted on here as of yet, but this topic relates to a scenario that my company is going through.  We have a "domestic" or "Buy America" job on our floor right now that has to deal with a lot of SS.  Somewhere in the paper trails that came before purchasing of the material the statement "Buy America" got changed to "Buy American."  Same thing, right?  WRONG!!!  What our project managers came to find out was that, as previously stated,  Buy America is melted and mined in America, but once you add the "N" to the end of America you open the material choices up to include NAFTA countries as well.  So when we started opening up boxes of SS material and seeing "made in Spain" and etc. on parts the mistake had been found.

On the lines of what is stamped on the material, just because it may say "made in America" on that piece of steel does not necessarily mean that it was M&M in USA.  Could be melted in Finland, but then manufactured in the US.  All in all, you must look at the MTR's to be sure of what you have.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 10-30-2008 13:15
We also deal with this frequently. Typically jobs that have government aid from a state level require melted and manufactured in the USA. Aid from the federal level requires melted and manufactured in a NAFTA country.
We recently had an issue dealing with the "manufactured" part of the requirement. I received a MTR for steel that was noted as melted and manufactured in USA. But it also had a note on it stating "CTL in Canada". After I finally figured out that CTL means "cut to length", and that CTL is a manufacturing process, we had to reject a truck load off steel.
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 10-30-2008 13:06
Prof. Crisi,
It is strictly politics.  I disagree with it.  In my industry we require for certain portions of our structures steel of a quality such that as of today not one single US steel mill has been able to qualify to produce it.  On the other hand there are mills in Finland, Korea, and many in Japan that can do so.  I don't buy the quality argument.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By waynekoe (**) Date 10-30-2008 15:04
Attached is a copy of a list that was given to me for a recent COE job.
Attachment: BuyAmerican.pdf (19k)
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 10-30-2008 15:17
That certainly narrows down your options.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 10-30-2008 13:31
Professor Crisi,
  It is a "keep American money in America" thing. There are instances where it is a quality issue but for the most part, it is buy American.

jrw159
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 10-30-2008 16:21 Edited 10-30-2008 16:23
Buy American is also enforced by DFARS for federal acquisition and procurement.  We regularly get contracts here with requirements for M&MUSA.  But you see all the nations listed which are eligible.  Now, some of our customers really mean it when they say MADE HERE, they mean the ore came out of the ground here, it was refined here, melted here, alloyed here, drawn here.  However, those requirements are few and far in-between.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 10-30-2008 16:54
That is correct.  It is not that non-USA steel is any better or any worse. 
State Departments of Transportation get a huge amount of their project money from the Federal Highway Administration.  Due to politics, or whatever (I suspect it is actually Union influence) , FHA has made "Buy America" mandatory and State DOTs must comply with FHA requirements or they don't get the money.
This is common for any bridge project.

We have recently seen "No China, No India, No Malaysia" material requirements on power/pollution control projects.  I guess some folks have had a bad experience with materials from those parts of the world.  I suspect that may be because the documentation cannot be trusted.  "Cheap, black, & sinks-in-water" steel can easily become any material you ordered with the artful use of a computer.
We had an "A53 Grade B",  4" sch 40 pipe get accidentally dropped, about 2 feet onto a steel horse, and snap in two like it was made of glass.  (Any A53 I've dealt with would have bent or dented, but not break)  The pipe was made in....China.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-09-2008 06:15 Edited 11-09-2008 06:21
The final product's associated documentation is only as good as the paper it is written on. That being said, having the steel made within our own borders provides the QA/QC departments a bit more peace of mind, leverage, ie. lawsuits (Nothing like a hefty monetary court settlement and fear of jail time for "Compliance Assurance"). I've heard "industry legends" about foreign made structural steel that was radioactive. Wasn't discovered until NDE/RT problems arose from over exposed film....and as the story goes, the steel was purchased from Mexico but was remelted from Chernoble.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 11-09-2008 14:10
Prof Crisi,

I think price is the no 1 issue. If the tender mentioned "the raw materials shall be made in USA", you will not of course make your calculation based on China materials. However, in case of unavailability, the option to get from non reliable source is normally subject to the approval by the Owner's Engineer. Material samplings are normally requested to confirm the data stated in the mill test certificates.

Imagine, if you have requested someone to buy you a Sony TV made in Japan and he cameback and gave you a Sony TV made in China, will it be the same to you?

Best Regards
Joey
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-10-2008 19:42
Joey,
Are there nowadays Sony TV sets made in Japan or in any other part of the world but China?
Ten years ago, Japanese Sony, Dutch Philips, Swedish Electrolux, German Walita etc. etc. used to have their own factories in Brazil. Now, local department stores are full of Sony TV sets, Philips electric razors and hair dryers, Electrolux refrigerators, and Walita coffee machines, all of them made in China. The local factories have close their doors.
Giovanni S. Crisi

    
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Domestic vs. US Origin Material Certification

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill