Thanks gents.
I do realize that at present we are well within compliance, but I am looking to be compliant should we increase activity, change process, or for those "gray" areas, such as sanding/grinding. I have looked into the supplied air hoods and they may be an option; however I still lean strongly toward the portable extractor equipment. The information available on chrome6 can be spun either way, in my opinion; I ask my OSHCON rep and get one answer, and my welding supply guy gives another. OSHCON has stated that if I plan on welding, sanding or plasma cutting any stainless steels, it would be a good idea to have either a respiratory device or a fume extractor. My welding supplier thinks that it's a waste of money, unless I plan on adding GMAW or FCAW capability (which I do not - at present). Conversely, I do occasionally read MSDS data, and I see that there may be concern with 80s and 90s wires as well.
Beyond chrome6, there are many other byproducts of the welding processes, and I do care about my welders.
I am basically trying to head off any difficulty. The last thing I want to do is have a contract come in and then have to make a knee-jerk decision in this area, at a direct offset to profit (the boss often quotes without considering such trivialities :) ). This, I find, has been part of the difficulty with taking a company out of the dark ages. I love a good challenge!
Thanks again for the inputs.
Hello again Curt, there is a group at the University of Washington that is doing research on this topic and is headed up by a lady whose name I can't remember at the moment. When I get back into the office I'll see if I can find the information about this and relay it to you. I believe the study is both medically related(describes the causes and effects of the exposure) and also covers various types of physical protection(respirators, fresh air hoods, extraction systems, etc.) As I recall they also give the various rates of contribution as to levels based on process(cutting, grinding, welding/processes, and even other sources such as certain types of paint). Talk to you later, best regards, Allan
Hello again Curt, I didn't find the exact information that I thought that I had, yet here is a link to the individual that is conducting some of the research on the topic. If you check some of the links on this page you will see that you can request various information and also possibly be included in some of the research. I also Googled "hexavalent chromium" and there are offerings from various companies for systems specifically targeted to dealing with fume removal for hex. chrome. Hope some of this might help you with your task. Best regards, Allan
Yes, it does make you think a bit more doesn't it? Regards, Allan
Please, before creating any additional regulations in your shop, speak with your welders and see what their opinions are on their health as it relates to hex chrome. Too many companies are trying to force respirators and heavy hoods on us without our consent. I know alot of us are willing to accept personal responsibility for our health and as long as govt. regulations are adhered to, why make the work site any more unpleasant for us than it has already become.
Hello spgtti, please don't misunderstand the intent of this thread. I know none of us particularly cares for the myriad of regulations that we are sometimes subjected to by the "government". I can also understand the various sentiments of those who oppose this sort of thing. At the same time, shop owners, companies, and everyone who will eventually be affected here should be aware of what is coming down the road and shouldn't be blind-sided by this sort of thing either. I don't believe it is the intent of individuals on this forum to support "unnecessary" requirements/regulations etc., it should be everyones business to consider and formulate opinions on the validity of all things that relate to the trades. For your own personal long-term safety you will hopefully at least consider many of these sorts of items and as I believe you basically said, make your own decisions on many of them. Best regards, Allan
Unfortunately it is the insurance industry and "educated" safety engineers who are driving alot of new regulation in the workplace. The new coal burner i am currently working on is prime example of this. Many common place craft tools and work practices have been outlawed on this job in order to create a safer work environment. It not only creates confusion as to how to perform your job but also creates a more unsafe jobsite due to the inability to use what has been industry standard techniques. Most of the people managing work anymore have little or no industry experience. This adds stress, discomfort and complexities to what is already a challenging job. Excuse my vent but most of us realize the health effects of our industry and want to make the decisions on personal heath ourselves.
Hello again spgtti, I tend to agree with many of your points. I believe, for new folks coming into the trades who might not have the benefit of experience or others who are willing to share their wisdom, that it is certainly an advantage to provide information to them that many others take for granted. I would venture to say that you have had experiences with greenhorns that have opened your eyes to the naive mindset of many who are entering the trade world. Very likely they have done something or ask a question that has set you back because you thought "well everybody knows that don't they?", I know I have.
Hexavalent Chromium, Manganese fume exposure, lead-based paints, welding through galvanized coatings and zinc-based paints, all of these and more should be of concern to us whether we actually apply merit to their dangers or not. Specifically because OSHA and other agencies "are" going to be sure that we all will have to deal with them more in the future. Issues such as this are going to be with us and either we can contribute to the solution or become part of the problem. Believe me, that doesn't mean that I don't gripe too, I have plenty, but without becoming involved with the issue you probably won't have an impact on any changes which you would view as positive and beneficial. Have a great day and best regards, Allan
Not sure I agree at all,
It should not be "up to the welder" to decide what safety equipment is reqiured on the job... no freakin way!
Well it's hot inside that stainless tank that Johnny is mig welding in and he doesn't like the fit of that air supplied welding hood you got for the Hex Chrome... So he is just gonna wear his regular hood.. It's his lungs right???? Right... Until he gets sick and sues everybody and his million dollar hospital bills must be sucked up.
The whole notion of welders who "make the decisions on personal heath ourselves." would be fine if you paid for your own long and short term health problems out of your own pocket.
"Welders opinions" about Chrome 6 don't mean Jack! For an employer,,, You comply with the law or you take the fine... For the welder.. You comply with the rule or you hit the bricks... Now if you want a welders opinion about what type of safety gear options they want and all are code compliant that is another matter.
Exactly what common place craft tools are being outlawed?
Exactly what industry standard techniques are you now unable to perform?
Since you diddn't tell us it's impossible to judge, but usually this type of rhetoric comes from folks who disable, remove or somehow defeat manufactures safety guards on tools in order to "get er done"
Most insurance companies simply audit to see that OSHA regs are being complied with.. They don't often invent rules or "new regulations" they do nothing more than make note of violation of long standing OSHA regulations.
For our unfortunate bretheren workers out there past and present who have lost their life, limb, lungs... We would do well to profit from their loss and ensure that our workplace is safe for ourselves and those who will follow us from hazards known and unknown.
All those safety rules that we agree or disagree with were "WRITTEN IN BLOOD" !!!
Lawrence please come out to were the work is and stuff you and your optional air supply hood under a harness so you can climb a 60 foot ladder and reach through a 5" gap to make an x-ray weld. Its easy to lash out from behind a keyboard.
Oh, and if you disable guards and switches around me I'll see you out the gate.
My reply was not aimed at violating laws or ignoring safety and health issues but to take into consideration the health risks versus workability issues that arise when new work practices are instituted to cover the gray areas.
spgtti,
I went back and read your posts again and gave it some more thought.
You may have a golden arm... And about being where the work is? I haven't hung off a scaffold since August.
So rather than lashing out, I'll just reiterate that the advice you gave the poster was bad and leave it at that.
Spgtti,
BWAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You are very naive as to the way things work when it comes to a company's liability concerning their employees health and safety.
The scary part is, it sounds as if you are dead serious.
Clueless!!!
In fact, you are so clueless, if you were stripped naked (oops, that's the pervert in me coming out), soaked in clue musk, and did the clue dance in the middle of a field of horny clues at the height of clue mating season, you still would not have a clue.
jrw159
If you want to know why I would do this, simply ask your company accountant how much he had to peel off for workman's comp and insurance. I won't even talk about the glut of lawsuits being run out over the last few years over this kind of stuff. The reason the government makes laws like this is due to industry's failure to regulate itself. You say allow the welders to regulate themselves? Buddy, I have 25 people working my floor, and if I don't stay on them then no one would wear safety glasses, ear plugs, nothing. The result is more injuries, more time lost, greater insurance premiums, greater workman's comp, more OSHA inspections, more resulting fines, not to mention that since all my workers are hurt, nothing's going out the door, so no $$$ coming in. How would that look under the Christmas tree?
spggti,
"speak with your welders and see what their opinions are on their health as it relates "
Since when do welders know JACK about anything?
Talk about the "inmates running the assylum". Whew! I certainly hope I don't end up on your project if you're attitude towards safety prevails job wide.
Don't get me wrong I was a Union Ironworker in the early '70s, and we didn't wear safety lanyards. My foreman said to me "Boy, if you got time to tie off, you got time to look for another job." Our attitude back then was "Darwinism (survival of the fittest) will sort out those that shouldn't be on the iron"! And believe me, it did! BTW, that foreman only had two fingers on one hand ' and three on the other.
I still curse the mobility unfriendliness of the full body harnesses. But the company pays me to take the time to follow their procedures and so, what the heck!
If you don't like the rules, start your own company, run it as unsafe as you like and enjoy the lawsuits as they come your way. OSHA, EPA...they've got some really good lawyers to entertain and enlighten you for years to come.
Superflux,
"If you don't like the rules, start your own company, run it as unsafe as you like and enjoy the lawsuits as they come your way."
VERY good advice except for the fact that if he/she does end up running a company and chooses that route, jobs will be far and few between because ANYBODY who contracts out to work a project will have to have a safety program and that program will not fly if it is the "Inmates running the assylum". LOL
I totally agree with your statements. :-)
jrw159
Please by all means you all should come to the Iatan 2 project and work with the "qualified" safety personell who have never been on a job site and 6mos. out of engineering school mechanical superintendants.They have stood and watched turbine shells swung from cranes and dropped multiple times. They would rather you wear goggles than safety glasses while grinding(never mind that they fog up after a minute and prevent you from seeing) this is company policy and is not open to any discussion. Rigging pipe with chokers is no longer allowed we only use kevlar endless slings and cannot run a choke without using a shackle. No longer can you fly fab hung upright and ready to install due to rigging slippage. However the qualified rigging class is available and only open to supervision so can you guys hurry up and get those 15k tanks floated across the floor and hung today? Cutting torches are rarely available if you can even find one but there are plenty of grinders with cutoff (death) wheels for cutting big bore carbon pipe.
You people act like welders are a bunch of idiots. Wrong! We are professionals and know waaay more about our job tasks than those of you who come out to visit.
I'm all for a safe jobsite and everyone going home at the end of the day. Safety has gotten alot better in the past 16 years I've been in this business but some of you are starting to go too far while searching for those lower EMRs.
Nobody said welders were idiots. Welders are production driven and must be monitored for safety and quality. This does NOT mean they are idiots.
But the way you come across, I just want to ask you.... You mean they won't let you ride the ball on the crain anymore??? Hell when I was on that end of the deal we used to just jump on the end of the line on top of the ball and just ride it while the operator put us in position, and we didn't have to worry about those dang worthless, heavy "Fall restraint" thingy's, always having to get it inspected and crap. What a pain in the ass.
Now I could go on and on about the lessons I have learned in the oilfield. Sometimes people die out there! It happened a heck of alot more before there was some sort of safety structure involved.
Now I am being a smart a** here, but really, look at what the liability issues involved with the concept you have mentioned. Even if you signed a contract staing that you are responsible for your own safety, there are still requirements that must be met by an employer.
jrw159
Bozak, if you can't get your people to follow policy, fire them. My initial post was meant to ask managers and owners to think and discuss thoroughly a policy which affects ergonomics and safety/productivity before appying unmandated policy. After all we know our job better than you because we do it everyday.
Do you think they all have never been there?????
Hello spgtti, I feel it is unfortunate that this thread has taken the turn that it has. I believe that you aren't trying to say throw safety out the window. Yet, some might interpret some of your statements along those lines.
As this topic has progressed thoughts have been expressed that are clouding the basic idea that is being presented here. I believe I see where you are coming from with the description of the job that you are currently involved in. I am sure if I were in a similar situation that I would likely have a lot of the same sentiments as they pertain to the situations that you have described.
Similarly, the items and thoughts that have been expressed by others on this thread are equally important and in their own context are certainly valid. Codes, rules, laws, etc. are all up for interpretation in any number of different ways, that is why we have so many lawyers and judges with over-crowded dockets and so gainfully employed. That is also why the cost of doing business is so high and climbing even faster.
I believe what you are saying is for those(in particular if they aren't trade savvy) in a position of interpreting and enforcing safety requirements is to possibly take an extra minute to consult with "everyone" that is affected by those rules/requirements and ensure that they are all on the same page and truly acting in the best interest of both safety and a mutual understanding. I have seen instances where an interpretation of a safety requirement has actually been "more" unsafe than a possible alternative and the alternative has been within the requirements of the safety rules. Is it fair to say that this is where you are coming from? I am hopeful that you don't misinterpret my comments and understand that I try to learn from all points of view. At the same time I would also hope that all of the commentary that has gone on relative to this subject has also given you an expanded perspective as to how others view this topic. I would hope that you have been able to find avenues that you could employ to have a meaningful discussion with those at your jobsite to "enlighten" them from your own perspective on how they can adhere to safe practices and provide an environment that will remain productive, safe, and still meet the requirements of the laws/rules as well. Best regards, Allan
Allan,
How right you are. Thanks for bringing the mood back down to a more civilized nature.
spgtti,
I for one do not intend to be negative or cast insults, just adding my thoughts and comments (just-a-funin' with ya!). Reading back through this thread, I can certainly see how mine and others can be interpreted as such. Trust me, no one more than I resent someone (an inexperienced, educated idiot?) dictating every little detail of how to perform my day to day tasks! I've been working in the construction business 37 years, which is longer than many of those policy makers have been alive.
Often times, these moronic ideas come from the Owners, which only the heirarchy of you contractors have contact with, and they aren't going to poke the hornets nest, besides bein contractually obligated to follow "their safety rules"!
You obviously struck a raw nerve or we all would not have jumped on the band wagon with such vim and vigor!
Thanks for your views and input.
Unfortunately, we all gotta play by THEIR "F"ING RULES!
John
Allen and Superflux, thanks for returning the civility of this post. I definitely understand more the two different perspectives of any issue as it relates to the work site. Unfortunately people are people and if communication doesn't exist you'll either live with it or move on to the next one. The #'s in management having been growing so quickly over the past 8 years and with that comes LOTS of green hands and professional resume writers who have no business dictating each minute detail of work process, and yes, far to often you have to battle with them to prevent dangerous situations.
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