Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Can they really do this?
1 2 Previous Next  
- - By Kix (****) Date 11-10-2008 19:00
Talking about our IRA's and 401K's here.  http://www.carolinajournal.com/exclusives/dems-target-private-retirement-accounts.html
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-10-2008 19:09
Orwell is turning in his grave.

If this legislation ever sees the light of day..  There would be a run on 401's with people cashing out before Big Brother got his mitts on it..... The tax penalties from such a run would also play into the hands of the redistriubtors.

Coffee cans burried in the yard.
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 11-10-2008 19:18
Shoot man, the way my 401k is going right now, I won't have anything left to take by the time this comes around. lol
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 11-10-2008 19:24
There will be a major uprising I HOPE!!!!!!  I would never trust them for a minute with my hard earned cash.  Already, I am not planning on collecting social security when I retire.  If I do, it will only be a bonus.  That means I am ON MY OWN. Why can't they leave well enough alone?  Even with my stupid mistakes, I have earned an annualized rate of 6.5% in my IRA for 20 yrs. - and that includes the fact that I just lost 38% in the recent crashes.  I intend to make that money back to return to my annualized rate of 10% or so.  If I have to earn their "managed rate" of a whopping 3% I will never be able to retire.  The numbers just don't add up.  I would support a rebellion against the gov't even if they try.  I don't get any other pension, and I don't want those socialists giving me a defined benefit which is NOTHING!!!!
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-10-2008 19:48
Amen brotha!!  This is gona get interesting.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 11-10-2008 20:25 Edited 11-10-2008 20:43
Didn't take long did it?
Thank God for the fillibuster!!
I'm not sure the insanity of this can be overstated.
And its just beginning.
Parent - By mountainman (***) Date 11-10-2008 20:36
how would one know if this could really happen and when?
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 11-12-2008 02:53
I do not see the elimination of 401k programs. Kinda like legalizing pot. Too many idiots will become unemployed.
Look instead of declining matched contributions and lowering of the ammout each can contribute tax free.
Also look at the 401 accounts being taxed the same as any brokerage account. You trade and sell you pay short/long term capital gains or income at the highest marginal rate.
Just like private business looked at the private pension plans as free money to raid, the govt is looking at the pile of cash just setting in 401k accounts not going to be used for oh 20 or 30 years as a waste of assets.
Hope everyones sock is full. This is NOT gonna end well.
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/2008/11/08.html
BABRT's  
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-10-2008 20:52
This is the type of post I'm inclined to lock or delete , because a politically based allegation is being presented as if it were from a news source, when it is just pulled from the website of a political think tank (John Locke Foundation, publisher of a political newsletter called "Carolina Journal", not a real news organization). It's easy for everybody on either side of an issue to post equally unsubstantiated opinion from websites, and this sheds no light on welding or anything else for that matter.

Ross
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-10-2008 21:27
Here we go again!!!!!!!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-10-2008 21:29
Step slowly away from the keyboard.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 11-10-2008 23:27
I like that!! 

Griff
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-10-2008 21:33
I just wanted to know if they could really do something like that and for someone to tell me it's just a bunch of political junk.  Sorry Ross..
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-10-2008 21:44
I read the link and, as a former journalist, I can see the joints where partial pieces of fact were put together in an artful way, but what I think doesn't matter. It's just how fast we get to having forum members proposing insurrection on the basis of something that doesn't have much substance. I don't want to see both sides playing that game again, so some restraint is called for on politics and religion. This is what many forum members have conveyed to me, at least, in the past two weeks. Please don't egg people on.

There are other sites that are better than the AWS forum for political debate.

Ross
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 11-10-2008 22:20
Ross do you often feel the need wear a black & white striped shirt to work :-)? Carry a whistle? 
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-10-2008 22:29
I'm going home, so you're on your own til the morning. Play nice, now.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-11-2008 03:12 Edited 11-11-2008 03:14
Ross! You were a journalist? Excellent post as always!!! ;) ;) ;)
Then let me ask you this... When is is politically okay (I don't mean correct now!) in here to question the very nature of the many different agenda's that are constantly being revealed not only in this forum, but anywhere these days for that matter??? A True PATRIOT Has earned the right to QUESTION anything they FEEL LIKE QUESTIONING!!!

So long as the conversation remains civil, and respectful, I do not see anything wrong with an honest exchange of views in here... So long as the discussion doesn't end up turning into an overblown argument over a simple debate then, no one needs to worry about their "Freedom of speech rights being violated in here - CAPECHE??? Hey Ross? I believe I answered my own (loaded of course! ;)) question!!! :) :) :)

So please gents, let's behave like adults, and not like the high schools kids that btw, taught us a thing or two just recently with respect to organizing for change.

In summary, let's learn from our mistakes, and make ourselves as a nation once again the shining beacon to the world as it once was for all to seek, it's divine guidance!

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By ross (***) Date 11-11-2008 03:28
It's the nature of politics and religion. You can't mix it with work and you can't mix it with family.
Parent - By sbcmweb (****) Date 11-11-2008 03:39
That smile while you're skewering that food is quite unsettling Henry.

I don't want to know what you are thinking about. No, I do not.

Step away from the man with the skewer.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-11-2008 14:13
Henry

..."high schools kids that btw, taught us a thing or two just recently with respect to organizing for change."...

You have a short memory.

This has been done twice earlier in your life time.  Only, both of those senators were eventual looooooooosers.  IMHO they were looooooooosers before they ran for any office.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 02:20
Current events there Joe!

What school did you go to to earn your history degree btw?

Those so called (By you I might add;) ) did pretty good for themselves as far as a legacy goes so, looooossssserrrrssssss?????? I think NOT!!!!

Btw Joe, It's always refreshing to read your comments in the manner you care to express them because if you didn't, then I'd actually start to - well maybe - worry about you, and your present state of mind - CAPECHE???

Btw, how are those suspenders holdin up??? :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-11-2008 12:31
Ross

So what!?!?!?! Leave it alone.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-11-2008 13:27
Anyway, so can our government do something like this to us?  I was just actually at Edward Jones last wednesday looking to get an IRA going.  If this is even possible, I don't want to do it.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-11-2008 14:03
IMHO I don't think that they would.  If Uncle Sam were to take possession of IRA or 401k then the companies that administer them would be out of "work".  Now I would hope they take the 401s from the companies that are being bailed out, at least until the companies can get back on their feet.  That way the employees would be guaranteed that what retirement they do have is not being squandered by management.  That is my thinking, but I am a Dem, remember! :-)
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 11-11-2008 14:58
I think Bryon is right. I dont think this will happen. But it can. The government can essentially do anything it wants, barring a violation of the constitution. Though who's intepretation of the constitution are we talking about? Extending their power is what governments do if left unchecked. And they do it by convincing us that we have to have it. But in this case it faces long odds. For now. Redistribution of wealth arguments have powerful emotional appeal. But it really takes the most extreme viewpoint to advocate such a thing. But todays extreme can be tomorrow's reasonableness if we aren't vigilant.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-11-2008 20:38
Wow, so if I am interpreting this right, they want to take money from those that "have" and give to those that do not "have".

So if I "have" because I choose to work for a living, my money will be taken and given to someone who does not "have" because they choose not to work?

Maybe I am not understanding this correctly. I truly hope I am not understanding it correctly.

So lets forget the political aspects of it for a moment, no dems and pubs. Can someone tell me if I am understanding this correctly? And if I am understanding this correctly, how it is that I am supposed to be OK with this?

Again, I am not wanting a BS political rampage and closed minded opinions. I am looking at this with an open mind, and I am just flabbergasted at the idea of it. I feel the same way about my money that I do about my guns. May God have mercy on someone trying to take it from me because I sure won't.

This is not "bait" for anything, just help me understand the reasoning for it please. Or not. LOL

jrw159
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 11-11-2008 22:39
No, no, no, you have it all wrong. You don't "have" because you got up early, hustled, worked and earned day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. No, you "have" because you are "lucky".

And the liberals hate the "lucky". The liberals punish the "lucky". They despise the gains made by the "lucky". They covet those gains. They're gonna come and confiscate those "lucky" gains.

Those that do not have are not "lazy", they are just "not lucky". Get it now?

Grasp both your money and your firearms because the "unlucky" are coming for both and it really isn't going to be funny.

After we endure 4 years of it, we will with a bit of luck, see a reemergence of true freedom, true conservative government, and an end to billion $$$$$ bailouts for abject failures. In fact, we might see that emergence in 2 years, that's what happened in the 1st Klinton term.

JTMcC.
Parent - By Root Pass (***) Date 11-11-2008 23:59
"They" don't think you are "lucky". "They" think you cheated to get what you have. Big difference in attitude/motivation of the "have nots" when they think success=cheating
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 00:17
JTMcC,
  I appreciate your attempt to help me understand, but I still do not understand. Luck is winning the lottery, a poker pot, a drawing ect. however earned money is not by luck.

Also I want to leave the them and us part to the side and just get to why and how do you figures of the issue.

Thank you for your reply, but I am still lost.

jrw159
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 11-12-2008 00:57
The 401(k) was a central plan, a central tenet to get people to save for their own retirement in addition to Social Security.  It came into play during the Reagan years, and it was designed to supplement your own investment program, dollars that you have earned in a retirement plan that was independent of Social Security.  And, of course, the way it works, your company offers you the 401(k). You can take a percentage of the gross, your gross pay every month and put that in your 401(k).  It reduces your taxable income. 

George Miller, who heads the House committee that deals with 401(k)s, about a month ago said, we have to eliminate this tax subsidy.  The government is losing $80 billion a year.  We can't afford to lose this kind of money.  There are too many people that don't need this tax break anymore. So what we're going to do, we're going to take away the whole notion that you get to deduct from your gross whatever you contribute to your 401(k).  The government needs that money.  So one of the big incentives for having a 401(k) came under assault.  Then that same committee two weeks later brought in an economist from the New School in New York called Teresa Ghilardu.

She wants to basically eliminate the 401(k), and the way she wants to do it is she wants to go to people who have a 401(k), who have seen its asset value plummet because of the market plunge.  So she wants to go back to August levels.  Everybody that has a 401(k), we'll take you back and we'll give you money. We'll restore the value. The government will. We're just going to print some money here, and we're going to restore your 401(k) to its August amount.  Then we're going to take it.  We're going to take your 401(k), and we will put it in your Social Security account that the government is monitoring for you, and we will invest every year 3% in government bonds.  We'll buy government bonds so that your 401(k) will grow at 3% every year adjusted for inflation.  The most that you will be able to contribute to your 401(k) every year is 5% of what you earn. 

And then when you retire, your 401(k), and plus there's a $600 annual addition that she formulates here because she finds it inequitable that some people get a 36% tax deduction and some don't because the various income tax rates that affect how much of a deduction you get.  So the bottom line is, they'll take your 401(k) and put it in Social Security. They give you 3% a year plus 5% of your gross added, and then at the end when you retire, you get one check. Your Social Security check plus whatever your 401(k) is.  The government takes over your 401(k).  Not so much flushes it, they just take it, like they're going to take some pension money.  Now, this is not centrist. This is not moderate. This is George Miller, and this is the kind of thing that Reid and Pelosi will go for.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-12-2008 01:23
Source for the above is
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_110508/content/01125112.guest.html

It's a good policy to provide credit when using published material as a copyright issue.

Ross
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 11-12-2008 01:44
Sorry Ross I'm not trying to cause problems. Politics is one thing, money is a whole different matter!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-12-2008 02:18
Rush is politics.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-12-2008 02:23
Money and politics are inseperable. 
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-12-2008 01:30
Call me what you will but how about this:
Instead of corporate handouts, bailouts or what have you.  The gov't takes control of the banks and others that are failing, turn them around like Warren Buffet turns companies around. Then instead of having million dollar parties for the white collar bigwigs of the company they take the profit that the companies make and puts that money back into Social Security and other government programs.

They would use OUR tax money to INVEST in poorly managed companies, AIG, Lehman Bros. and others (maybe GM/Chrysler), and set up a mutual fund type system where us, the taxpayers would get more than the crappy 3% from Gov't bonds.

Many people criticize the mortgage companies that gave "unworthy" people mortgages by Gov't rules.  Well, IMHO we are giving "unworthy" companies OUR money to mismanage again.  With the economy and job market is going, there is going to be more company collapses unless something radical is done. 
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 13:50
Bryon,
What you propose is not original. Its been done over and over again all over the world, And EVERY SINGLE TIME its not only a miserable failure, but a cause of deep misery for millions of people. For someone who inisists that Americans are arrogant for not learning lessons from overseas I am shocked you haven't noticed this.
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-12-2008 15:18
My LAST political rant!  Sorry, Ross.

Ok, let's try this one instead:

Let's keep bailing out companies.  First it was banks and mortgage companies.  Now its car manufacturers.  (Thanks Nancy Pelosi)  GM, Ford and Chrysler.  Come on they have all built turds for the most part for decades.  They guzzle gas but they look nice and they ARE American.  The American car manufacturers can't compete.  I was looking for a Hybrid.  I actually like the new Malibu.  The salesman laughed and told me that if they even could get one he wouldn't sell to me, "its a piece of sh**.  It get a few miles more than the non hybrid .  I don't know what GM was thinking."  That is what the guy told me.

Indeed.  The American market is full of crap that we really don't need, but we do want.  And that is what counts, our freedom to lose our mind acquiring STUFF.  Why can't companies CONSERVE money and stop having $400,000 parties for sales people?  Everyone here complains how the Dems. made mortgage companies give loans to people who are not "worthy".  Now they are foreclosed on and the mortgage companies are going under.  It seems to me that if companies can't make it in the new frugal market place then they are going to fail.

F it.  Let's give WalMart tax breaks too.  They will probably be hurting this Christmas season. 
Have a nice day :-)
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 15:13 Edited 11-12-2008 15:25
Root Pass,
  Thank you for taking the time to break that down for me. I had a fairly good idea of how the 401K thing was going to work, but this sure helped me in my decision to stop my 401K investments and drain it. I don't like the sounds of it, and I think I will just go back to saving it in a coffee can in my locked gun cabnet.

jrw159

EDIT: As for my original question about redistribution of wealth, I have come to the realization that there is just no way one can make this sound like a good idea. It sounds to me like I am being sold a chocolate dipped sprinkle covered turd, and I don't want or need one. I do, however have a picture of one that I will refrain from posting. :-)
Parent - - By Root Pass (***) Date 11-12-2008 01:07
Here is an article from the Wall Street Journal on a hearing of the House Education and Labor Committee earlier this month

:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122477680834462659.html
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-12-2008 01:26
Thanks for providing a link and citation in this case.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 11-12-2008 14:20
Ross

If I am inferring correctly from the gist of your replies, you are telling us that quotes of information from sources that you consider to be "legitimate journalism" is "OK to Quote" everything else is Hogwash and unworthy of the Off Topic section of the Forum.  Did I infer and summarize this correctly?????
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-12-2008 19:51
Joe,

No, we have recently had a problem with name-calling in the forums which resulted in members contacting me and also wanting to complain to the society's executive director.  Neither side of the political spectrum was blameless.  This could become a problem for my livelihood as well as for the openness that we now enjoy on the forum. I thought the problem might be due to the political temperature getting too high. I may be wrong about that, but going on the theory that the politics was getting overheated, I tried to cool things off with a closure of the off-topic forum for a few days.  Upon reopening the forum, I felt that everyone was being restrained, but I was suspicious that several posters were trying to get a rise out of the audience by posting seemingly innocent posts like, "Hmmm...I wonder why gun sales are going up?" Am I paranoid? Probably. 

In the particular topic we are in, posters were inspired to advocate armed revolution based on the first post, which at first glance seemed to be from a "legitimate journalism" source, but it's really a political screed from an advocacy group. Not that being hogwash made it unworthy of the forum (heavens knows we have no lack of it), but that people were becoming alarmed at something without knowing that it was just political opinion from an internet site, not a news item, and I thought people wouldn't get all amped up if they considered that it might not be wise to cash in their 401K's without first finding authoritative verification of an impending government plot to seize personal assets, based solely on a site that is selling Jesse Helms biographies on its home page..

Then another poster came through with corroborating information, without stating that it came directly from a Rush Limbaugh broadcast. Without casting aspersions on El Rushbo, his program is self-described as political commentary, not financial advice. Without any intention of censoring, I thought again it would be useful to know the source before wiping out one's retirement holdings in favor of gold coins.

I believe there is an objective difference between legitimate journalism and political commentary, and I am just asking for truth-in-labeling, so people can be free to decide on their own. You may not agree.  All I want to do is avoid name-calling on the site and for us not to be an embarrassment to the world. Maybe I've weighed in too much. Last week I was being accused of being too lassez-faire. It's the same argument on Wall Street: too much regulation or not enough? I don't know.

Ross
Parent - By ross (***) Date 11-13-2008 15:58
Someone contacted me courteously and said that I seemed to be disparaging Sen. Helms. I didn't intend that. I would have made the same point if the site was selling merchandise from someone on the opposite side. My point was meant to be that sometimes you can tell a political site that has an agenda by just looking at whether it has Al Gore's planet-friendly cookie recipes on it or whatever, and that's a clue that maybe it's not a journalistic source or a place to get financial advice.

Ross
Parent - - By johnnyh (***) Date 11-12-2008 02:01
JRdub,

Winning a poker pot takes more than luck.  Turn on ESPN right now and watch the big tournament.  A bunch of luck, true, but some skill too. 
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 15:16
Johnnyh,
  This is true. Along with having Lady Luck on your side you must have the skills and intelligence to go with it or you won't make it to the final table, let alone to heads up play. :-)

jrw159
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 11-12-2008 18:14
Someone is not taking their meds if they think this is a good idea. :-)
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 11-12-2008 18:27
Maybe worse than losing my IRA/401K money would be the impact on the stock market.  I mean, the regular bi-monthly contributions from all the millions of retirement funds is the only thing propping up the stock market sometimes.  If it was not for those ongoing contributions, we might have had another 1929 repeat this fall.  I know I did not take my money out or stop making contributions just because the market tanked.  If the gov't pulls all those trillions from the market, our entire economy could fail.  I would predict double digit unemployment.  My non-retirement stock market investments would be wiped out as well.  Let's hope some of the people in Washington have the brains to think this thing through.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 11-11-2008 22:44
I will leave this one alone. 
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 11-12-2008 01:01
Next thing you know they will take your boomerangs away. 
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Can they really do this?
1 2 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill