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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Letting a subcontractor use your WPS and PQR's
- - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 14:39
     I remember reading awhile back about this subject, but couldn't find the actual thread that discussed this in depth.  The one that was brought to my attention was http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=96253;hl=Why  , but it really only talks about the prices of doing PQR's and SWPS's and other things.  In that thread I stumbled upon a post from Js55 that said "The only time I know of when one company can use another companies WPS's is when 'effective operational control' can be demonstrated between companies belonging to the same overarching corporation. This operational control must be addressed in their respective QC Systems.
QW-201". 
     I'll be honest and admit that this flew over the top of my head like a pair of panties did on prom night.  So, here is what I have going on.  I have a sub that wants to run off of our WPS's and PQR's to build one of our torque boxes.  I've been told that companies such as Mantiwoc Crane and others in the area allow their subs to utilize the primary contractors WPS's and PQR's.  My question is, what is the proper way about going about this so we are not held accountable if something were to ever happen to a torque box.  If so, do I just send over our WPS's and PQR's and spot check them every so often to make sure they are following our guidelines? Or can you even do this without still taking on the full responsibility?

Thanks!!
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 11-17-2008 15:03
I believe what Js55 meant was that if Coorporation "A" owned company "B & C" that "B & C" could share WPS if effective operation control can be demonstrated.
The company I am working for shares WPS from the foundry that the same coorporation that owns us owns.  and the only time we share is when we are doing work that has been contracted to the foundry!

The EOR should make that  decision IMO.

hope that helps!

Carl
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 15:22
Oh yes, every little bit helps!  Keep em coming.  If I remember correctly from that thread I can't find, It talked about why you shouldn't share your WPS's and PQR's with the companies you have doing your work.  I wanted them to come up with there own procedures, but after I taked to a very reputable CWI in our area and he told me about Mantiwoc Crane and a few others letting their subs use their WPS's and PQR's, I figured I'd come check with you all.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-17-2008 16:06
Every code I've been involved with has been very explicit on this subject. I cannot think of one offhand that allows an unconnected company to use your PQR's/WPS's.
So the reason you don't do it is because its a code violation. I wouldn't know what code, if any Manitowok operates under. But even aside from the code violation I think it important a contractor demonstrate their ability to do the qualfication. Using someone else's, given the ranges allowed in most circumstances, means almost nothing.
Its lazy and irresponsible at best IMO. Dangerous at worst.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 16:29
Where in D1.1 does it say a sub has to come up with there own procedures?  All I could find was 4.1.1.1 and that doesn't say anything about subs.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-17-2008 16:47
I'm trying to follow this as well.  I had been told by an inspector (now I are one) that as long as a company wanted to share it's PQR with you (which is not often) then if you or your welders could pass what any of the welders would have to pass for the WPS to the PQR then there was no problem and it could save you the time and bucks to write and qualify your own.  All the follow up tests prove is that the new welders can pass the test that has already qualified the procedure.  That is basically what we are doing with the entire section on pre-qualified procedures.  We know those procedures work (as does any that you have the paper to prove that the tests have been done previously) and we only have to quallify the welder to the pre-qual welding procedure.

I would have to check with a lawyer to see if there would be any legal repercusions but I'm not sure why there would be.  If the test proved the procedure works, and the company that paid to get it done doesn't mind sharing it with others, why would it be against the code?

Please take it in the spirit in which it is asked,  no challenge, want to know for my own info both as a shop owner/welder and as an inspector who is not sure about this.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 17:23
The procedures that we would give to a subcontractor could only be used for what we want them to build for us.  If some other company came along someday asking our sub to build something for them and wanted to know if they had WPS's and PQR's, they couldn't show them ours.  Well, I guess they could, but that company would not be smart to accept them.  I really hope this subject gets spelled out in this thread. ;-)
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-17-2008 18:24
Okay, I also went back and read every post on the thread referred to.  There are still a couple of things that I question. 

If you can buy it from AWS, why can't you use someone else's if they have willingly given you all the paperwork verifying the tests that were performed and the results?  If they want to charge and you want to pay it could still save time and money for 'duplication'.

I do understand why a company would include info in contract docs that would limit one subs abilities to share info with another to keep tests from just going anywhere, especially on more special materials, but why would the PQR holder not be willing to share on materials not special just a procedure not included in the pre-qualified section? Especially if it did not in the process reveal any company secrets.

It would at that point become the tester's responsibility to make sure that all perameters were followed to the letter, but isn't that the job of the welding inspector witnessing the weld test and hopefully the testing of the coupons?

Not trying to take over this thread, just trying to get all the pieces put together and some of my own questions answered.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 11-17-2008 17:12 Edited 11-17-2008 17:14
Take a look at this!
http://files.aws.org/technical/interps/d1.1-04-i05.pdf

It says for the purpose of "Qualifying welders" A WPS can be shared between a sub and contractor
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 17:40
So once our sub qualifies their welders to our WPS's, they can build our torque box right?  However, it is still our responsibility to see that it gets built right. I believe this company does not even have a QC program up and running.  I will have to go there and do the spot checks I talked about and we will have our third party inspectors inspect the part at the subs expense.  Man, how did you find that document?  However you did, thanks for sharing it!!
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-17-2008 17:49
Kix,
4.1.1.1 says "Each manufacturer or contractor..."  That means that any organization that performs welding that must conform to the D1.1 code must qualify its own WPSs (see also 1.3.2).  Per 1.4.1 the Engineer may elect to approve other contractual arrangements.  In fact, I have been involved in projects where subcontractors were allowed to use a contractors WPSs - in that case the stipulation was that all welding had to be performed under the control of the contractor's QC system (not the subcontractor's).
Mankenberg
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-17-2008 18:32
Then when I finish my other post you add this,  thanks kipman.  Making more sense within the code part of the question.  Still not sure I totally agree with some of the application.  What happened to our human ability to pool knowledge so the person who found out by experience the stove was hot, could share that with others so they did not have to experience the same pain?  Hope that made sense.

At least the pieces are making sense from an inspector's viewpoint of the code.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By kipman (***) Date 11-17-2008 18:40
That pooling the experience part is what led to the development and acceptance of the AWS SWPS that can be purchased and the prequalified welding procedures that anyone can write - these are the result of many years of collected experiences that have proven that structural welding performed under certain controlled circumstances work and do not require further qualification testing.  It is likely that as the years go by we will see the code allowing prequalified WPSs for things such as electroslag, electrogas, etc as enough documented experience is built up to convince the code writers.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 18:47
  I'm guessing that i'm supposed to take what it says in 1.3.2 where it says "or that individual representing a company" to mean subcontractor, but what about what this says here? http://files.aws.org/technical/interps/d1.1-04-i05.pdf ?
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-17-2008 18:55
That only talks about welder performance qualification - it has nothing to do with production welding.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-17-2008 19:06
Well, why in the heck would a sub need our WPS's and PQR's to qualify their welders when they are going to have to quailfy thier own procedures.  Wouldn't they just qualify their welders to their own procedures when they get it done?  I'm not arguing here, I'm just curious. ;-)
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-17-2008 19:29
They wouldn't need the PQRs.  Anyway, I agree with you that that particular provision is of little use.  As you say, if the Engineer does not accept the use of the contractor's WPSs for all welding, including production welding, you might as well have the subcontractor use one of his own prequalified or qualified WPSs to test their own welders.
Mankenberg
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-18-2008 05:25
I believe you have to go back to see what welding standard or code is applicable to the work being performed. There are differences between AWS, ASME, and military welding standards.

There is also a liability issue. Many contractors will not allow a non-employee to use any of their equipment because the "owner" is always held liable should someone get injured while using their "property" or as a result of someone using that "property". That idea of property can easily include the WPS and any supporting documentation. To allow another contractor to use a company's intellectual property, i.e., welding procedures, procedure qualification records, etc., may incur liability if anything goes wrong even if it can be shown that the subcontractor did not follow the requirements of the welding documents precisely.

One purpose served by having the contractor qualify their WPS (or simply writing the WPS in the case of a prequalified WPS) is to show they have the technical competence to perform the welding that is required. Understanding the technical aspects of welding involves more than being able to simple deposit a sound weld. The technical aspect of welding is often overlooked by "owners". They assume every contractor has the expertise required and they assume there is an infrastructure in place to support the welding effort. That isn't always the case. When I review a contractor's welding documentation, it is my first objective evidence the contractor understands what is expected of him and whether the technical know-how is available to them.

The idea of SWPS sold by AWS runs counter to everything I believe about the need for a contractor to demonstrate their technical competence and understanding of the applicable code. The concept of buying a WPS that is very general in nature does nothing to show the "owner" that the contractor has the where-with-all to perform the welding to code requirements. The SWPSs that I've seen don't even meet the requirements of AWS D1.1-2004 table 4.6 for both WPSs qualified by testing or as required for prequalified WPSs (see  clause 3.6). God Bless any welder that attempts to set up for a welding job with only a SWPS to refer to.

In the end, management will typically decide how to proceed based on the assumed risks involved and the financial ramifications, usually to the chagrin of engineering and quality control. From my prospective, that's good, because it keeps me gainfully employed as I try to pick up the pieces after the project falls apart.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 11-18-2008 13:30
Al,
 
   Very well put!!!  I don't really like the idea of letting them use our procedures and I'm due to have a big meeting about this on thursday.  It's going to take time for this sub to get a QC program on-line, but it will be worth it in the end for them and us.  Yes, this will surely drive up the cost of doing business with them, but quality and consistency is of the upmost importance here.  You gotta pay to play!!;-)

  Thanks again!!  Ray C.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-18-2008 14:18
Quality doesn't cost, it pays!

The cost of repairs often exceed the cost of the initial fabrication. The money saved by detecting errors as early as possible means time, energy, man-power, and money is not expended on materials or assembles that do not meet the criteria of the contract.

I currently have a client that did not perform the inspections required by their contract due to an oversight during the contract review. Now that the project is completed and ready for testing the oversight has been discovered. The cost of disassembling the unit, removing the paint, removing panels that conceal certain welds, etc. is more expensive than simply fabricating a new unit at a cost of $25000 dollars of direct labor and materials. That doesn't include the cost of the lost production time that could have been spent on the next project. In other words, the cost is more like $40,000 when the cost of "lost opportunity" is taken into consideration.

The best example I can think of happened about twenty years ago. A company that fabricated the materials failed to perform visual examination of the material before shipping it to the site. Because it was considered to be a manufactured item it wasn't subject to field inspection. I notified the project manager that there was a serious problem with the materials when it arrived on site. I told the PM that I hadn't performed any inspections, but it was apparent that there were problems when I saw the materials unloaded and stored on-site.

At the PM's request, ten welds were selected at random were inspected and a report generated. Nine of the ten welds were rejected based on the requirements of D1.1 (used for the sake of comparison). After looking into the problem further it was discovered that the manufacturer stated the materials were designed and fabricated per AISC which opened them to field inspection. Another third party inspector was retained by the manufacturer to examine the material after it was erected. The repairs were completed and then I, representing the owner, did a follow up inspection to ensure nothing was inadvertently missed. The bottom line is that the manufacturer stated  that it cost them 4 times the original price (in excess of $1.5 million) just to repair the rejected materials. Not only did the manufacture lose money, but their reputation suffered a severe blow as well.

As I said, a good QC program can save a company many times what it costs to fund the QC program. However, a poor QC system is going to fail to live up to expectations every time.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Ke1thk (**) Date 11-18-2008 14:22
Hi All,

It seems to me that if I write and qualify a PQR, I can write as many WPS's against it as I like (with in it's limits), and qualify as many welders as I like (within it's limits).  I could qualify as many welders as I like using different welding machines at one location, providing the machines are calibrated.

What would be the difference if I had a PQR and wrote a million WPS's, qualified a billion welders against it, (within it's limits), but at thousands of different organizations, provided the equipment was calibrated? 

My PQR's, WPS's, and Qualification's are mine  (copy write law?).  I certainly can use 'em, or tweak 'em.  I'll save my customers every dime I can.

Keith
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-18-2008 14:36
Hi Al,
I don't disagree with anything you've said.  To clarify just a bit, however, our friend Kix did state about halfway down the thread that this was a D1.1 question.
Regarding the practice of a contractor allowing its subcontractor to use the contractor's WPSs, I have seen this practice approved numerous times by the Engineer on various offshore projects.  However, in all cases the contractor was required to apply its own QA/QC system in full to the work performed by their subcontractor.  In most of the cases of this I have seen, the subcontractor performed its work solely at the contractor's facility (which makes it fairly easy for the contractor's QC personnel to perform their duties also for the subcontractor's work).  Over and above this, we as the owner had upwards of 20 verification inspectors monitoring the contractor's/subcontractor's performance.  We also had the stroke to be able to insist that the contractor maintained a robust system for monitoring the performance of welders - this included not only NDT reject rates but also the results of welder audits (i.e. adherence to the WPS).  So all in all maybe an unusual set of circumstances for some industries, pretty common in mine, and one in which we still ended up with a high level of confidence in the welding.
Mankenberg
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-18-2008 16:44
Hello Kip;

As you say, those are decisions each company has to make. They weigh the risks and act accordingly. Every job is different and each project has different requirements, i.e., codes, regulations, statues, etc. that have to be met. Those decisions are beyond the realm of responsibility of the CWI.

The question has to be asked, "does the customer get what he wants?" If the answer is "Yes", the goal has been met. Hopefully, a profit is recognized when all is said and done and no laws or contractual obligations have been violated. The dirty laundry doesn't get aired unless there is an injury, loss of life or unless there is an obvious attempt to defraud the owner. Should that be the case, the lawyers come out of the wood work and nothing is considered to be "industry practice". 

The one thing that wasn't addressed by our discussion is how the laws and regulations of the country, state, or city are met or violated. How do the local laws and regulations affect business and how business is conducted? Again, those issues should be recognized and addressed on a case by case basis by the owner and the contractor.

I'm not dismissing the sharing of WPSs, I'm simply saying there can be unexpected consequences of doing so unless all the project requirements and risks are known and given due consideration. As long as all the interested parties are aware of the requirements and all are in agreement, go for it. Just don't do it without understanding the consequences.

I'm always amazed at the herd mentality that can make a group of people (in a meeting) agree to something that if polled individually, any one individual in the group would reject without a second thought.  As a group, they make choices that none of them would make acting alone. Interesting. I remember working as a Fabrication Manager in one company, the Director of Manufacturing would ask the question, "Is there anyone here that doesn't believe this will work?"

One of my associates would quickly grab my arm and pull it down with the remarks, "He only wants to hear from people that agree with him. Do you want to keep us here all night? Unless your going to kiss his butt, keep your mouth shut!"

It got to the point where my friends would sit to either side of me at-the-ready to grab my arms at the first hint of them being "cocked to pop". :) The director would look my way to see if I was going to cast a dissenting vote, but my arms would be firmly immobilized before I could pop one into the air. ;) That's when I first became familiar with the term "Job Suicide"!

I wonder how many times the same type of comments could be heard during some of the meetings in Detroit?

Best regards - Al

Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2008 16:27 Edited 11-18-2008 16:32
Okay,  with those last few posts I think I understand a lot more about the 'why' to not let others use your PQR.  There is a certain amount that I would still take limited exception to but I understand where each of you is coming from.  Part of it also goes back to a statement I have made to all my competitors here in my little area since I took the seminar and exam to get my CWI.  So many of the smaller shops (such as myself) have supposedly worked to D1.1 and most don't even have a copy of it let alone a newer copy to work from.  I have told them they need to go to the seminar and get the newest copy of the code even if they don't want to get CWI.  It was one of the best things I ever did, along with reading this forum, to get myself more familiar with what I said I was doing.  It has been amazing how many of the guys have started calling to ask questions to be sure they are in compliance to the code. 

At that point they could do the things that you are saying prove their competence and knowledge thus verifying that they are capable of completing the job as contracted. 

Thankfully, most of what my shop does falls under pre-qualified conditions so I don't have to spend lots of money to get my own PQRs.  But thanks to a good teacher at the seminar, good inspectors that have worked with me through the years, and several years of trying to work within the code I feel capable of doing my own when the need arises.  Guess it is all too natural a course to try to take the lazy way out and use someone else's even if it costs money to do it.

Hope Kix got the answers he needed and that I did not interrupt the course of this thread too much, you have all been very informative to me.  Thanks once again to each and every one.

By the way, where would one go about getting 'good' info to write a 'good' QC program, not just a very generic one.  Have checked several sources and haven't found anything I have thought adequate.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 11-18-2008 16:39
I did get the answers I needed and no, you didn't hijack my thread, more like helped it along. ;-)  Thanks again everyone for a very informative thread!
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-18-2008 16:49
Brent,
Nobody can supply you with a quality management system, unless you hire somebody specifically to write you one.  That is because it must be specific to your products and work processes, and the needs of your clients and potential clients.  What is available to help you, however, are some good frameworks for quality management systems.  If your organization is required to have a quality management system due to the nature of your industry/contracts/clients, etc, this will also dictate what must be in it.
Not knowing your industry, you might try:
ISO 9000/9001 or
10CFR50
I am familiar with both of those - they both can give you useful information for a QMS.  Never forget that bottom line, your QMS is supposed to help make your organization better and leaner and therefore to make your organization more money (through elimination of wasteful practices and continuous improvement).
Mankenberg
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2008 18:05
Thanks,  that and a good safety program are two things that I realize take a lot of time to work out for personalized applications.  I was just hoping someone had a 'guide' with maybe a template program that could then be personalized by going through and eliminating what did not apply and expanding on what did apply. 

My own application is very limited as I do not even come close to what most of you would call a big job.  So I can use a rather simple system but I do want it to have quality and cover all the appropriate material.  We have a very loose program currently and have basically worked off the General's program on any substantial jobs.  I also try to make sure all bases are covered in contracts.  Twelve years here with no problems but I am always looking for ways to improve and tailor fit all my paperwork.

ISO and even the AWS Certified Welding Fabricator program have always been a little much for my applications though one day it may become a necessary move.  It is always one of those things that seems to make one over qualified and over expensive for the work available in my area.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 11-18-2008 18:24
Brent,
Then I would recommend using ISO 9000/9001 as a framework.  It does not mean that you would need to seek ISO certification through a registrar.  The beauty of it is that you simply fill out the framework to suit your needs.  For instance, if you do not have any IM&TE that requires calibration, in the section of your quality manual dealing with calibration you would simply insert a statement to the effect that it is currently not applicable to your organization.  Should that change in the future, you could easily plug it in.
Regards,
Mankenberg
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2008 18:37
Thanks Kip,  I will definitely check that out. 

Have a Great Day, Brent
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Letting a subcontractor use your WPS and PQR's

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