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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / P numbers and Group numbers
- - By Pipeslayer (**) Date 11-19-2008 21:13
I've got some time and want to read and better understand P#s and group #s. Where is the best and easiet location for the understanding. I understand to a point but I have some trouble being sure at times and I want to elimiate the uncertainty.
Parent - By motgar (**) Date 11-19-2008 21:36
If you have a copy of the ASME Section IX, then take a look at QW-420.
Parent - - By fit.to.a.flange (*) Date 01-01-2009 14:09
Group no becomes essential variables if impact testing is a requirment by the construction code. See heading "procedure qualification" under "introduction" in ASME IX. Hope this help.

John boy...
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-02-2009 14:03
Well, here it is, another new year.

Admitting that I'm getting older with each new year, I hope I can become wiser with the passing of time.

In a nut shell:

P numbers are groupings of base metals with similar welding characteristics that have been approved for pressure boundaries when constructing pressure vessels or piping systems. Group numbers are sub-groupings within a P number that further subdivides the P number. Group numbers, as mentioned by John Boy, becomes an essential variable when notch toughness is a code requirement.

S numbers are similar to P numbers, but materials listed are not approved for pressure boundaries. They can be used in situations where there is no pressure differentials involved. I like to think of those materials as being appropriate for structural application, not pressure containing applications. Some construction codes do permit specific S numbered materials to be used in piping systems, so check your construction code.

Materials listed by ASME in P numbered and S numbered groupings are listed in AWS B2.1 under corresponding M numbered groups. Similar groupings of base metals can be found in NAVSEA welding standards as S numbers (not to be confused with ASME S numbers).

F numbers originally indicated "ease of use" for SMAW welding electrodes. The F numbers were used when qualifying welders to indicate what electrode classifications could be used for production. With the introduction of GTAW, GMAW, FCAW, SAW, etc, the F numbers don't exactly fit the "ease of use" concept, but is still considered to be an essential variable for welder qualification and procedure qualification. The F numbers used by ASME (Section IX) and AWS B2.1 have been harmonized and are the same. This wasn't always the case. Back in the "80's", B2.1 used F numbers as one means of differentiating between welding processes. It made sense to me, but the ASME faction prevailed, so that now all the ferrous filler metals used when welding with the gas shielded processes, FCAW, GMAW, OFW, etc. are grouped together as F6. A good move? Who knows? I preferred the older system used by B2.1, it clearly differentiated between the welding processes, whereas the ASME system does not.

A numbers refer to weld deposit chemistry. They only apply to ferrous metals. A number is an essential variable. In certain cases the A number listed on the PQR and WPS can be taken from the manufacturer's information. In other cases, such as when dissimilar base metals are welded, carbon steel to austenitic stainless steel, the A number should be based on a chemical analysis of the actual weld deposit. Anything that will alter the deposit chemistry, such as dilution, is an essential variable that must be addressed. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Uncle Chuckles (*) Date 01-05-2009 18:05
Question, how does one generate an "A" number based on chemistry?  Is there a chart that is used or is it a simple comparison to other filler metals with similar(or as close as can be found) chemistry?  i.e. electrode "B" has a similar chemistry to electrode "A", and electrode "A" has an A number of 4 so electrode "B" is a A4.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 18:33
The A number is the chemistry of the weld deposit. Look at the table listed as QW-442 to figure out the A number based on the chemistry of the weld. There are alternatives to having a chemical analysis taken from a weld sample if you are using SMAW, GTAW, or PAW, in which case you can use the A number listed by the manufacturer's certificate of compliance or the filler metal specification. If you are using GMAW you can use the A number listed by the manufacturer's certificate of compliance if you are using the same shielding gas. The details are listed in QW-404.5.

When dissimilar metals are being joined, I suggest using a chemical analysis of the weld deposit. This especially true if single pass welds are used and there is dilution to consider.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Uncle Chuckles (*) Date 01-05-2009 19:23 Edited 01-05-2009 19:27
Thanks Al,  My ignorance bleeds through again.  I asked the wrong question.  My question was based on trying to figure out an F number on a PQR/WPS combo that didn't look right, because it did not have one.  Turns out that there was a typo - "F#" apparently stands for F3 (that slippery shift key attacks again).  All the F No., P No., A No. and others are kinda blending into one today (Good old first day back after the holiday.........need.........more................coffee........brain.......shutting...down....) My real question had to do with how you distinguished in QW-432 between F No. 6 and all the others if all you have is the AWS Classification.  You seem to have answered that in your previous post (F6 is for GMAW, FCAW, GTAW ect.).  Ahh fresh pot brewed - brain charging back up.

Let me further display my ignorance - If an electrode for say SAW has a particular F No. and there is a change in the compsition in the flux (different brands, product form, recrushed slag %  ect.) and the ease in welding changes significantly is there a change in F No. ? or has the whole ease of use thing been thrown out the window and we are just left with one more designation to remember?

Charles
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-05-2009 19:38
Ease of welding only refers to SMAW.

The F number is a simple look up based on the filler metal specification. Look at the table listed as QW-432.

Essentially, all SAW for ferrous metals is listed as F6.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Uncle Chuckles (*) Date 01-05-2009 20:04
Thanks for clearing that up!

Charles
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-06-2009 12:46
No problem UC. Glad to help.

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / P numbers and Group numbers

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