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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding machine size 4 BIG BORE?
- - By Superflux (****) Date 11-22-2008 10:41
Hello All,
I just previewed an upcoming job and was wanting some input on my suggestions to the Supt.
24" to 36" X 1/2" wall spiral wound pipe These are to be used for Highway Bridge embankment penetrations. Boring machine, pushes a joint, weld a joint, push etc. They are taking 5 hours to weld out a joint
Super said no code involved? OK, but any ways back to the point...I told him there was no need for any rod smaller than 5/32" 6010 for rooting (heck, I like 5/32 to root with on 12", but, I haven't strapped on a hood for pipe since '91). I think 5/32-root, 3/16-hot pass (6010) then blow and go with 3/16" or 7/32" 7018 on out. As I mentiond earlier, no code so... I figure weave away and just call me the "HUMAN WIDSHIELD WIPER"! (no code remember and I aint inspectorize-ing on this.)....7/32 might be a bit big for the overhead, after all, this is all down in the bell-hole (any blobs of lava in the elbow is definately gonna leave a mark!)....

So! would an SA 200 be big enough? Blue 300 Pipe Pro?

What's your take on this...welding macine size and estimated weld out times?

Thank you folks.

John
Parent - - By Jake331 (**) Date 11-22-2008 13:10
I would run 8010's on it for more speed....
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 11-22-2008 15:09
What makes 8010 faster deposition?
Parent - By theweldor (*) Date 11-22-2008 18:39
I would go with dual-shield or flux cored wire.
Parent - - By Jake331 (**) Date 11-22-2008 22:27
well you can just run faster downhill than you can uphill
Parent - By K.Sexton26 (**) Date 11-26-2008 02:18
Thats true on 1/2" and under down hill would be quicker with appropriate rod dia. Thicker than 1/2" uphill is faster
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-22-2008 20:24
John, 

I'm somewhat with theweldor, why not a wire feed (no code). Faster with the right setup.  Maybe root first if you want with the 6010. And I agree with the size other than I have often used 3/16 even for the root.  Just turn it up a little more.

But your question was welder size.  I would think that while a 200 would handle it, you are going to be pushing the max end. Especially for 100% duty cycle.  So how steady are your guys at putting rod to rod.  I usually run either an 300 or a Miller 500D.  Don't like to be sitting on the machines max end for long periods of time.

Have a Great Day, Brent
Parent - - By theweldor (*) Date 11-22-2008 22:54
  Sorry for not answering your post better. I run a 500 amp machine. I worked on a job doing much the same thing a couple of years ago. 2 welders , one on each half of the pipe, using .062 dual shield wire. It was taking us about  an 1 hr to splice one joint. That was 48 inch pipe by the way.
Parent - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 11-23-2008 00:44
My shop does alot of this stuff, around here they call it casing pipe or cason- most times its just a big conduit for a utility pipe. We use 1/16 flux core with a 400-500 amp machine and get a joint done in about an hour on 48". A few months ago we did some 12" sch 40 that went under some railroad tracks. The railroad co. (csx) said we had to tig it, good for me, $$ for the contractor.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 11-23-2008 01:05 Edited 11-23-2008 01:11
John do you have clamps? If not you can spend quite a bit of time getting the hi lo out of the pipe and getting a good fitup.

36" .500W, in a ditch box, with experienced people and suitable equipment, runs right around 35 - 40 minutes actual welding time, from 1 hour 10 minutes to 1 hour 30 minutes from swinging the pipe into the ditch to completion. That includes buffing the bevels, getting in the clamps, getting it spaced and welding it out and rolling up. That's two welders and two helpers.
That's a bead with 5/32" 5P+, a hot pass, and two full fillers with 5mm 8P+ and a 3 bead cap (which is what the gas companies are calling for these days).
A puddle cap isn't really any faster, maybe zero to 5 minutes max. You fill it quite a bit lower for a 3 bead cap. A 2 bead cap isn't any faster than a 3 and 3 looks slicker. To puddle cap it I'd add in a 2 bead strip on the side.
Those are welds that will be inspected and shot.

I'd figure on a 24" .500W at about 25 minutes welding time from start to finish using the same two welders and the same consumables.

If you use 3/16" 70+, you will have to fill more before capping. The 5mm rods really pick up some time for you.

The place to really beat some time out of the job is in getting fit up. I don't believe on .500W pipe that you will gain any by using wire, because you'll likely put the bead/HP in with stick and then switch over, then weld out with wire, that plus moving the feeders into and out of the ditch box eat up time. On .650W or greater it's probably worth the time tho. Just my opinion.
These are my numbers, keep in mind there are using very experienced PL welders/helpers. U'm confident in those numbers for our use, they're compiled between my experience and a friend of mine on well over a thousand welds, and they take into account varying weather and site conditions. Feel free to modify them for your situation.

JTMcC.
Parent - - By tnhnt (***) Date 11-23-2008 04:02
Go with dual shield it will cut your welding time considerably.
Parent - - By ntbroz (*) Date 11-25-2008 02:20
I just did a pull that was 800 feet. I used a sa 200 5/32 8010 on root and 3/16 pipeliner on hot pass filler and cap and was plenty. But my rack on my machine is rolled to the cold side so it stacks metal good. So in my opinion an sa200 is plenty good.
Parent - - By 1mancrew (**) Date 11-25-2008 02:57
I'd like to add a little wrinkle to this thread that I have not seen mentioned in previous posts but in considering which machine for which job, fuel consumption is always a major consideration! For me anyway. An old 200 is a excellent pipe machine; no doubt but with the rod sizes you are talking about using you are going to be pushing a 200 to its amp/duty cycle limits. I can tell you with experience from using a pro 300 for the last couple years that a diesel with a higher amp capacity is going to be much less money to fuel up.

Just another little thing you might want to consider.

GH Weidman
Parent - By welderrwc72 (**) Date 11-26-2008 22:37
Dang It Glen!! As much money as you make I dont know why your worryingabout fuel, hell Im suprised your not running and old sa600!! Dang Millers anyway
Parent - By pipehead (***) Date 11-26-2008 22:43
I am guessing if this spiral weld (wound) your joints will be bell and spigot??? If so we do alot of that in our country especially for large bore water main 36" to 102"... well any way depending on what type of joint it is we run 7's 5p dowhill wide open! but I will say your sa200 will strugle with this... I have run 300d's with my experience

hope this helps
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding machine size 4 BIG BORE?

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