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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Transformer welding
- - By Timbuktu (*) Date 11-19-2001 20:11
Hi, I'm a high school student engaged in an engineering project which requires us to develop a method for welding the seam between the tank and cover of a high voltage power transformer.

At present the tank and cover of transformers are bolted in position. However, there is environmental concern that the insulating oil from inside the transformer may leak out. So we are planning to replace the bolted seal with a welded joint.

We are planning to do Gas Shielded Metal Arc Welding or Manual Metal Arc Welding.

The problem is that the weld has to be strong enough to withstand the stresses imposed by a vacuum of 3 milllibars and the lifting of the 80 ton transformer. The weld has to last about 30 yrs and retain a leakproof seal.

The most important thing is to ensure that during the process of welding the fumes do not contaminate the inside of the transformer or the assembly area around it. The core and windings cannot be allowed to contain more than 0.5% moiture. To stop it taking up too much moisture, welding has to be completed as quickly as possible (approx 8 hrs) and a drying agent has to be used.

Can anyone please help me tackle this problem and advice me in how to stop moisture uptake and contamination of the transformer? Any help will be much appreciated.
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-22-2001 19:41
Dear Timbuktu,
take a look at the answer I've just posted to your question on the Shop Talk section.
Giovanni
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 11-22-2001 21:09
I believe T asked about welding a cooling oil tank to the transformer cover which is not uncommon. I have seen many of these (GMAW) welded covers before. The cooling oil for the transformer is integral with the cover in the shape of cooling fins which circulate the oil (warm/hot oil displaces the cool oil at the top). These are typically edge joint -flange welds. I think what makes this one MORE critical than other transformers with a similar design is that it is a class/student project.

I would recommend RSEW (if practical), GMAW-(S or P), or perhaps GTAW if this meets the criteria for minimizing heat input and internal contamination. Also, what about purging the tank to further avoid contamination and displacing the moisture?
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-23-2001 21:43
From the second paragraph of Timbuktu's posting, I'd say that he's talking about a flanged connection between the transformer tank and its cover. Is that so, Timbuktu?
Giovanni

P.S. What a fancy nickname you've choosed, Timbuktu! If my knowledge of geography is correct, Timbuktu is the capital city of the African Republic of Chad, a former French colony.
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 11-24-2001 12:05
You're right Giovanni, thanks for your warning. The truth is, it isn't up to us whether to bolt or weld the tank and the cover together. The transformer company wants us to weld it, so we'll have to find a way round it. About maintenance, the impression the company gave us is that once the core is welded in, it is supposed to stay there and last for 30 years. I'll have to check on that. What you said is valid though because during manufacture it is necessary for the tank to be subjected to vacuum and pressure strength and oil leakage tests. If a welded joint is used then it will not be possible to bolt the cover in place during these tests. An alternative method must be identified. Should additional features be designed into the tank and cover for this?

The main question right now is what can we use to stop the core and windings being contaminated. Is there anyway to block the fumes and the heat from getting inside during welding? We thought that we could use a lighter material to give the transformer a seal first while pumping a drying agent like dry nitrogen though to keep the core dry, then weld the cover on and vacuum the transformer and pump the oil in. Is this possible or pracitcal? What woud you recommend?

The welding method should be quick and the least contaminating. Heat is also important as the core is dry and would easily catch fire.

P.S. Timbuktu is just the pseudonym I use generally on the internet. It is a city in central Republic of Mali near the river Niger, west Africa. I usually just take it to mean a very remote place.
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 11-25-2001 04:45
The requirement of less than .5% moisture is a little ambiguous to me. .5%of the whole assembly is 800 pounds (roughly 100 gal) of water. So I would ask .5% of what?

If you form the flanges as before but omit the bolt holes, then weld around the outside edge of the flange, then the rest of the flange will substantially protect the interior from both heat and contamination. Strength is an issue I leave to your analysis but moving the lifting eyes to the body of the beast might help.
Good luck
Bill
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 11-25-2001 11:21
It means that the core and winding cannot contain more than 0.5 % of the max amount of moisture that the atmosphere can hold at that temperature. That is very dry. Moiture is removed initially from the core and windings by an oven and then they are placed in the tank.

The strength issue means we'll have to go round at least three times to weld it. I'm not sure whether the flange is enough, they're very strict on contamination.

I'm wondering whether spot welding is possible, just to quickly hold the cover in place. Or would the steel be too thick? Does anyone know what is the maximum thickness of steel that can be spot welded?
Parent - - By - Date 11-25-2001 19:06
I must agree with Bill, in that I think the answer to your problem lies in joint design. Personally I would not just keep the flange as is, but rather try something else.

Possibly you could design the cover with a "lip", so that it slides over the edges of the tank (like a cookie tin lid) and then weld a fillet weld all along the edge of the lip. To ensure that you have an immediate seal, you could ensure that the mating surfaces of the tank and cover is very flat. Then place some sort of a "gasketing" material along this edge. (Possibly PTFE gasketing.) As soon as you place the cover on, you should have a air tight seal. This means that the time required to complete the welding is irrelevant.

Hope this is practical advice.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 11-25-2001 23:59
I'm not sure whether we can do this, although it's good advice, I'll have to ask the company. The lid may be too thick to be shaped. Thanks a lot guys this is great help.
Parent - - By - Date 11-26-2001 17:30
You do not actually have to shape the lid. You can merely weld the lip on to the lid.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 11-26-2001 20:16
Oh, I see, that's a great idea, simple and practical. Thanks a lot guys, is ther anything else I can do? Which welding method is best? Is there any drying agent you can recommend?
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 11-28-2001 06:50
Some final thoughts-

I concede that Niekie's joint is technically superior. However the tooling to produce the flanged parts allready exists and if it can be used money is saved (allways good).

Either joint substantially addresses Giovanni's concern (from shop talk) about disassembly since you can arc out the weld in either case without penetrating into the interior.

You mention spot welding. A process called seam welding is essentially a continuous spot weld. The work is passed between two rollers while a high current passes between them. I have seen tanks that were assembled in this way. I have not ever actually seen the machinery. I believe irregular shapes would present a problem. I'm betting the price of the machinery would pose something of a problem also.

As for drying agents-
one could of course continuously purge with dry gas (nitrogen? maybe even argon) which your local supplier would be happy to provide. A transformer that weighs 80 tons is going to have a lot of space in it I suspect so prepare to use a lot of gas.

If air is an acceptable purge one could first pass it through a freeze out trap. The temperature would be determined as follows. Find the vapor pressure of water at the test temperature (in steam tables) divide by 200 for relative humidity .5% (more to provide safety factor) find temp where water has this vapor pressure (steam tables again) this is the temp you must reduce air to to guarantee relative humidity desired when air is rewarmed and used.
Bye
Bill
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 12-01-2001 10:39
Can anyone direct me as to where I can find information on flanges/gaskets that are suitable for this project?

I don't quite understand what you mean when you said 'form the flanges as before but omit the bolt holes'.

Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 12-02-2001 04:26
I assume that the body (of the bolted transformer)is sort of a barrel or box with a lip turned outward at the top. That is the flange. The lid could be flat or might be an inverted barrel or box with a similar flange(or lip). If the lid were flat it would be made to extend to the outer edge of the flange of the body. A series of holes would be drilled through both the lid and the flange underneath. A gasket would be placed between the lid and the body and the bolts placed through the holes. If you didn't drill the holes and just set the lid on top without the gasket then you could weld around the outer edge where the lid meets the lip which extends from the body.

The statement "A picture is worth a thousand words" comes to mind but I don't know how to post one.

Further wishes of luck with this project
Bill
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 12-03-2001 20:35
Thank you all guys. If you don't mind, I have just one more question. Does anyone know what sort of gasket will be suitable for use with welding? Welding will produce a high temperature, so a material with good temperature tolerance is best.

Once again, thanks.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 12-05-2001 00:45
Tim,
I must say I like Bill Van der Hoof's flanges' solution posted on Nov. 24 much better than Niekie's one. Two main reasons are the following:
1st. If the flanges are, say, three inches wide, your welding will be that far away from the transformer. By the time the heat arrives to the transformer tank wall, it'll have greatly dissipated away to the atmosphere. Why three inches wide? Well, that's a good number. That flange isn't a structural one, so its dimensions can be figured out according to your good judgement.
On the other hand, Niekie's lips make part of the transformer tank, so when welding them the heat will be in direct contact with the transformer inside.
Now, if you're going to weld the two flanges together you don't need any gasket between them. Gaskets are used for connections which are wholly flanged to seal them up, and after all this is a welded one, where the weld is the seal.
2nd. At the time of putting the top and bottom sections together, it'll be much eastier to do that if the connection is flanged instead of lipped.

Now, let me tell you that, unfortunately, you won't get rid of a bolted connection in your transformer. Which connection is that? A manhole, for someone to be able to get into the tranformer if necessary. As I told you in my first reply, in 30 years of life expectancy sooner or later some maintenance will be necessary, and someone must enter the transformer (after it's emptied from oil, of course) to see what happened and what's to be done.
In these days I went to take look at a substation near where I live which comprises three huge transformers 132/13,2 kV. Not only the transformers tanks are bolted, as I suggested you since the beginning, but they have a bolted manhole on the cover. Why? As I said, to allow someone to get into them, see what's going on and repair the trouble.
Does the manufacturer swear with his hand on the Bible that his transformer won't need any maintenance over 30 years? Tell him to remember Murphy's laws.
If you don't you know Murphy's laws, here they are:
1st. If something can go wrong, it will go wrong. (The transformer, in this case)
2nd. If several things can go wrong, the one that will is the one that will produce the most damage.
3rd. Nature always sides with the hidden flaw.
4th. Let to themselves, things always go from bad to worse.
5th. If everything seems to be going fine, you've obviosly overlooked something (in this case the manufacturer, who thinks that his transformer is going fine and doesn't need maintenance)
6th. No matter what goes wrong, there will be always someone who'll exclame that he knew about it since a long time (in this case that "someone" is me, who, the first time the transfomer goes out of service, will yell: I told that !!)

Tim, you're a young guy still in his highschool years. Listen to the advice of an "old fox" like me. Never forget Murphy's laws for ther rest of your life.

Giovanni S. Crisi





Parent - - By - Date 12-06-2001 19:19
As Prof. Crisi explained, a gasket is not usually used in a welded joint. I however assume you want to use a gasket to try the "quick seal" suggestion that I made, to reduce moisture contamination in the tank. If this is the case, then you need a gasket that will seal the roof under its own weight. (You could possibly add some weights if needed.)

This means that you need to make sure the gasket is soft, so that it can "give". In addition, it should be narrow, so that the resulting pressure is high. As this gasket will be staying in the transformer for the proposed 30 years service life, it will also need to be rather resistant to whatever could attack it in that time.

For such a once-off application, I would suggest a PTFE gasketing material that is marketed by a company called GORE. The exact trade name of the product I do not know, but it is a type of rope that you get on a roll. You merely roll it off and place it along the flange surface. The two ends you merely overlap, as the weight of the roof will squash it flat and give you the seal required.

I know this sound very "Heath Robinson", but they use this technique to even seal turbine casings, so it is actually a "done thing". If you contact them, they will give you further info.

Regarding the flange shape, (lip or flat) I believe that you should be guided by your application. The criticism that the lip will lead to more heat on the transformer body is valid, but then I believe that this is a non problem if you have a reasonably thick tank wall. (e.g. 20 mm) It will be kept even cooler if you already have the oil inside the transformer to cool it down. (Will the oil be in already?) To get the heat away from the gasket, simply make the lip longer. At any rate, the design constraints should guide you on the most appropriate flange design.

Hope this helps
Niekie Jooste


Parent - By dasimonds (**) Date 12-06-2001 20:12
The gasket material is called, did you geuss, Gore-Tex.
Parent - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 12-07-2001 06:35
I suspect that keeping a slight positive pressure in the tank after the lid is set on will be protection enough since it guarantees that all leaks leak out. If a gasket is required thin steel stock formed into a shallow v shape might work. as the lid is set on it squashes the v shape even flatter forming the seal. Ask any auto shop mechanic to show you examples of steel gaskets. They are common in cars. The advantage in this application would be that no matter how hot you get it when you weld it won't outgas into your weld or the interior of the transformer. A secondary advantage is that you will not be asked to provide proof of insolubility in the coolant oil.

Still further wishes of good luck with your project

Bill
Parent - - By billvanderhoof (****) Date 12-29-2001 07:09
I and I assume the others who posted to this thread would be interested in knowing how you did on this project.

Best holiday wishes

Bill
Parent - - By Timbuktu (*) Date 01-13-2002 12:19
I'm sorry I've lost touch with this for some time. I've been in Hong Kong over the holidays. I went to an engineering workshop, tried my hands with actual welding on the transformer and with the company's engineers, we figured that we will go with Bill's initial suggestion and keep the flange as it is and omit the bolt holes. The reason is the cost, given that one of the aims of the project is to cut cost, we want to save money/labour wherever we can. We have taken in all the advice from you. We'll be using dry nitrogen and keeping pressure from inside the tank.

I'm still researching choices of gaskets, but steel gaskets seem to be the most practical solution. What's left to do is to sort out how the welding is going to be set out in the factory, how to make use of automated welding machines, and calculate exactly how much it'll all cost.

Thank you all very much for the tremendous response you have given me that I'd never expected. Our group have came up with many ideas ourselves and it is very reassuring to have our ideas cemented by your words.

We're writing a report for this project for the next couple of months. By May, we'll have submitted our project to the Engineering Education Scheme, made a display and made a speech about this project. Actually, you guys and your contribution may well be mentioned in our report. When all is done, I'll post the report on here for you to see...or maybe just a summary (the report will take too long to read). We're thinking of making a video as well, i may post that on the web somewhere. You'll hear from me again, that you can be sure.

Once again, thank you.
Parent - By Timbuktu (*) Date 06-06-2002 19:32
Now it's finished. Our project has been a great success. Thank you for all you help. I made a video that we used for our display that impressed everyone, the Quicktime video can be seen at:

http://homepage.mac.com/hlau

The 80 pages long report will be posted up there as well shortly.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Transformer welding

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