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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Structural to Power Plant inspection transfer?
- - By supermoto (***) Date 12-22-2008 14:32
Just wondering if there are many power plant ASME inspectors that have gone from AWS code to ASME code.  Just wondering if this is very difficult to do considering there will be a few power plants going up in the next few years.  Thought I might want to get into that kind of work.

Do power plants require any special qualifications other than a CWI to do visual?  I have my ACCP level II VT, but is that enough?

Also I am working on getting my level II UT and MT.  I was told that you need to be PDI qualified, but I thought that was only for inservice inspection according to ASME section 11.

Just wanted to get ahead of the game if there is anything that I need to prepare for.

Thanks
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 12-22-2008 14:52
It's not very difficult, the hardest thing is getting the discipline to make yourself read, read and re-read ALL of the applicable ASME Codes. 

My suggestion, if your involved in welding, read ASME IX FIRST and foremost.  If you can afford it, take one of Walt Sperko seminars.  www.sperkoengineering.com if not, just be prepared to spend a few years learning... well, maybe make that a few decades!  Always keep in the forefront of your thoughts that ASME IX is NOT a stand-alone Code, it is intended to work in conjunction with its constructing counter-codes; ASME III, VIII, B31 series, etc.  ASME IX Rules may be modified, eliminated or added to by the constructing codes so understanding it is just a beginning.

Also, it depends on what type of power plant your thinking about... nuclear?  Almost any Company that hires QC types will have in-house testing and certification.

Good luck, keep us posted!
Parent - - By supermoto (***) Date 12-23-2008 14:08
Well I was thinking of trying to get on a new nuclear site.
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 12-23-2008 22:42
You still have to know Section IX! Welding procedures, procedure qualifications and welder testing for all ASME codes refers back to section IX. You also need to know Section V. I you are wanting to do UT, MT and PT then you need ASNT training.
BABRT's
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-24-2008 02:18
Everything depends on which direction you wish to go.

A cwi should get you in the door for qc visual weld/certain walkdown crews etc. under an N45/NQA-1 program

Remember there are a variety of nuc certs for qc.. civil, mechanical, electrical, weld with many more under those 4.

I also suggest you read section XI and more importantly, the appendixes. You will find the  base requirements for the PDI (performance demonstrated initiative) UT
You should also have a good understanding of 10CFR http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part050/part050-appb.html
and part 50.55a http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6ed032d53fadcc2d9ee0fe34eae5ad75&rgn=div8&view=text&node=10:1.0.1.1.29.0.108.47&idno=10

If your talking about new construction You need to be reading ASME BPV section II, section III, section VIII div 1, section IX, B31.1 to start. Then start chasing the references.

Average age of the experienced and qualified nuclear QC hand is 57, average age of the same for NDE LII's is 40. It's not just the plants that are aging, it's the knowledge base.

Keep in mind when your reading section III that it, as well as XI, etc have mods via NRC mandates, and CFR's. It's a minefield if you go in blind. The best advice I can give you is read up on the NRC and CFR docs first, branch to the codes, and read it all in light of the Appendix B to Part 50--Quality Assurance Criteria for Nuclear Power Plants and Fuel Reprocessing Plants

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-25-2008 00:05
To answer your question about the PDI more specifically:

10CFR50.55(a)
( 4 ) By September 1, 2009, ultrasonic examinations shall be performed using personnel, procedures and equipment that have been qualified by blind demonstration on representative mockups using a methodology that meets the conditions specified in (50.55a(g)(6)(ii)(D)( 4 )( i ) through (50.55a(g)(6)(ii)(D)( 4 )( iv ), instead of the qualification requirements of Paragraph -2500 of ASME Code Case N-729-1. References herein to Section XI, Appendix VIII shall be to the 2004 Edition with no Addenda of the ASME BPV Code.

( i ) The specimen set shall have an applicable thickness qualification range of +25 percent to -40 percent for nominal depth through-wall thickness. The specimen set shall include geometric and material conditions that normally require discrimination from primary water stress corrosion cracking (PWSCC) flaws.

( ii ) The specimen set shall have a minimum of ten (10) flaws which provide an acoustic response similar to PWSCC indications. All flaws shall be greater than 10 percent of the nominal pipe wall thickness. A minimum of 20 percent of the total flaws shall initiate from the inside surface and 20 percent from the outside surface. At least 20 percent of the flaws shall be in the depth ranges of 10-30 percent through wall thickness and at least 20 percent within a depth range of 31-50 percent through wall thickness. At least 20 percent and no more than 40 percent of the flaws shall be oriented axially.

( iii ) Procedures shall identify the equipment and essential variables and settings used for the qualification, and are consistent with Subarticle VIII-2100 of Section XI, Appendix VIII. The procedure shall be requalified when an essential variable is changed outside the demonstration range as defined by Subarticle VIII-3130 of Section XI, Appendix VIII and as allowed by Articles VIII-4100, VIII-4200 and VIII-4300 of Section XI, Appendix VIII. Procedure qualification shall include the equivalent of at least three personnel performance demonstration test sets. Procedure qualification requires at least one successful personnel performance demonstration.

( iv ) Personnel performance demonstration test acceptance criteria shall meet the personnel performance demonstration detection test acceptance criteria of Table VIII--S10-1 of Section XI, Appendix VIII, Supplement 10. Examination procedures, equipment, and personnel are qualified for depth sizing and length sizing when the RMS error, as defined by Subarticle VIII-3120 of Section XI, Appendix VIII, of the flaw depth measurements, as compared to the true flaw depths, do not exceed1/8inch (3 mm), and the root mean square (RMS) error of the flaw length measurements, as compared to the true flaw lengths, do not exceed3/8inch (10 mm), respectively.

( 5 ) If flaws attributed to PWSCC have been identified, whether acceptable or not for continued service under Paragraphs -3130 or -3140 of ASME Code Case N-729-1, the re-inspection interval must be each refueling outage instead of the re-inspection intervals required by Table 1, Note (8) of ASME Code Case N-729-1.

( 6 ) Appendix I of ASME Code Case N-729-1 shall not be implemented without prior NRC approval.

Thats where they are getting the PDI from. Sept 9 09 fwd inservice inspections utilizing PDI are mandated in the above noted manner.
Parent - - By supermoto (***) Date 12-25-2008 00:42
I haven't heard of PWSCC just IGSCC.  But I guess IGSCC is caused by water.

I guess that your response doesn't explain if PDI is for inservice inspection or does it include new construction, but I guess you wouldn't have PWSCC in new piping.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-25-2008 03:09 Edited 12-26-2008 11:39
PWSCC = primary water stress corrosion cracking
IGSCC = inter-granular stress corrosion cracking

Both are in service concerns.

(You did mention QC, I've extended that to QA/QC/NDE for the answer since you were not very specific as to your intent)
I provided a link to 10CFR50.55B. from there with proper research, you should have found 10CFR50.55A in which is a reference to NRC Regulatory Guide 1.84, Revision 34, "Design, Fabrication, and Materials Code Case Acceptability, ASME Section III" (October 2007)
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/reg-guides/power-reactors/active/01-193/01-193r2.pdf
page 6 of that document references under the Section III portion to ASME code case N-659 and N-659-1 which is for UT in Lieu of radiography. The NRC has disallowed that code case for the time being for all proposed and current new construction projects. Therein is your answer.

The best thing you can do for yourself is learn to read everything related. The NRC and the ANI/ANII will not be so kind as to provide you even a starting point in my experience. The NRC will ask you questions they already know the answer to, and you had better know how and where to get the right answer. (rightfully so in my opinion)

To elaborate, New construction is not very well covered at this time. Getting ASNT training for UT will not cut it either by itself. EPRI is the road you want to take if your going Nuclear UT. While new construction cannot base acceptance or rejection on UT in many cases, they do have to perform PSI pre-service inspections which are in effect base line UT exams. Those exams will effectively be PDI.
Before it's all said and done, I suspect that PDI will be mandated for Section III. I cannot see it happening any other way given the requirements for PSI. It's been discussed, but there has been no need for it. The recent completion project was completed early enough that the PDI program was not effectively fully implemented (late 90's)

The second post is therefore significant in that by Sept 9 the PDI program will have the force of law, and defined by the same. I would be very surprised if PSI did not follow suit shortly thereafter.

Consider this, 2007 ASME III still references 1992 ASNT SNT - TC - 1A. new construction code simply hasn't keep up with the times. Everyone thought there was no prayer for any more nukes in the states. If Obama doesn't kill them (and I can't see how he can given the state of the U.S. energy) the resurgence of nuclear power will have many flat footed.
(imagine what would happen to this country if 1/5 of it's power was cut off)

Dunno if any of this helped but there it is.

Regards,
Gerald

Edited 12/26 for the spelling police
Parent - - By supermoto (***) Date 12-25-2008 21:44
This is all great information.

I live about 30 min away from EPRI and have seriously considered thier PDI Fast Track program which is supposed to start up this summer.  The only problem along with many other people would be quitting my job to do the fast track for a year.  That will be difficult to pay the bills.

I will have a certificate in UT after next semester and I might have enough hours between work and school for my Level II UT and MT.  So I am just trying to figure out my next move wheather it is towards the Fossil industry or the Nuclear industry.  Either way I would be working for an inspection/consulting firm like Structural Itegrity or somebody.
Parent - - By dmilesdot (**) Date 12-30-2008 20:04
I would hope that if and when the construction projects get underway for nukes, the inspection companies will once again be looking for level I's.  This is the best place to get the training and hours needed for PDI and get paid while you get experience.  I was in on the tail end of the last construction era and I know that a lot has changed since then. I went thru PDI in the mid 90's and it was tough, really tough. It is a cert that you WILL need in the future for work in the Nukes, but get lots of experience from some good Level II's and you should do fine, just dont rush it. EPRI's PDI is a humbling experience if you try to get through too soon.  If you have a level II in either MT or PT plus your ACCP VT 1 you have a good leg up on others that will be trying to get their UT cert.  Lots of companies look for someone who has these certs already and are trainable in UT. Good luck to you.
Dave
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-31-2008 05:54
As I recall, it was the beginning of the program in the mid to late 90's. before that it was igscc etc. As for it being tough, it's only as touch as you make it. if you know how to read the wave the rest is a joke. At least that's been my experience.
Parent - - By supermoto (***) Date 12-31-2008 11:28
This is all good info.  I Hope to eventually go through the PDI program but I am not going to rush it.  Definately agree that I need to be patient and get all the experience I can under some good level II UT people.

Then I need to figure out how to get into a Nuke plant, so if anyone knows where I can get that help I need feel free to let me know LOL.
Parent - By dmilesdot (**) Date 12-31-2008 14:50
Supermoto, use the listings that I posted previously to see if any of them are looking for outage technicians.  If you are already certifed as a level II in PT or MT you will need all of your training records to prove your time.  Your training must meet the companies QA manual requirements so dont be frustrated if they ask you to jump thru hoops to get their certification. And you will have to take and pass their level II tests which will consist of a general test, a specific and a practical.  In the nuke industry you get used to taking certification tests over and over.  You will also need a record of any industrial radiation exposure that you may have had in the past.  This is usually called a Form 4.  If you havent ever worked in an operating Nuke or done any radiography you should be ok.  If you have, then you will need copies of your exposure record. It will save a lot of time if you have copies of this info because if the company has to send off for it, it can take several days.  On your first trip to a Nuke you will be required to take some training on how to "dress out".  This will teach you the proper way to wear the Anti-C's. and the proper way to take them off without getting "crapped up".  There will also be classes on the particlar nuke plants emergency procedures.  Pay attention in these classes as there will be a written test afterward that you must pass or take the class again.  If you think it was boring the first time the second time will really get to you.  Some plants are pretty reasonable with first timers others are not and will only let you take the training twice, then they send you home.  Most NDT companies today have a clause that says if you fail the training, you dont get paid.  After you get the first trip out of the way the rest will be easier each time.  It can be a very rewarding career choice, you get to work with some really sharp techs and there will also be a fair share of slugs.  There is a down side to this career, and that is there isnt much chance for advancement.  By that I mean once you become a contract level II technician, inspection exams are all you are ever going to do.  From outage to outage nothing much ever changes.  The supervison  usually works full time for the inspection companies and the Level III usually works for the Utility full time so you as a contractor are there to do the exams.  Things might be different in new construction, its been a long time since I worked as a tech doing Preservice exams.  Dont get me wrong, I really liked all the travel and working with new people, just know what you are getting into.  Hope this helps.
Dave
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 12-31-2008 14:56 Edited 12-31-2008 15:09
http://nukeworker.com/
http://www.roadtechs.com/nuke/wwwboard/index2.html
http://www.bartlettinc.com/sp.cfm?pageid=1988

That last one with an ACCP VTII will probably get you into watts bar. Go to the bottom of that page. You'll note the last listing is effectively looking for anyone with remotely applicable experience.

In all, it's my opinion that if you have any credible welding/inspection experience, the only reason you couldn't find work through one of those three links is if you simply don't want to work.

unless obama changes current plans (which i think would be political suicide for any politician to kill jobs in this economy) nuclear work is on the verge of experiencing a resurgence.

I've worked QC/QA/NDE and currently a LIII for an EPC contractor on a nuclear site. I am 42 years old and the "yungin". A few years back I worked the BFNP U1 restart project as QC/NDE. The QC department looked like a florida hospital waiting room. (no offense to the older members here). 
The NRC is not immune to this either. They are hurting for experience just as the rest of us.  I've had the very good fortune of working 2 Section III projects, look and ask around you how many can make that claim. The number of people with that experience under 60 years old is highly disturbing.

Bottom line is, it may seem a daunting task, but 3/4 of the battle is just figuring out who to call first if you have any relevant experience. The remaining 1/4 is getting them to sign you up for the clearance. Once you have that, and as long as you don't get a dui or shoot someones dog, there will be no worrys about work.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By supermoto (***) Date 12-31-2008 17:45
I can't thank you guys enough for all this information!  I know it will be a long road with many hoops to go through but I think this is where I want to end up.

Thanks
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Structural to Power Plant inspection transfer?

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