Been around welding for over 30 yrs. and never seen arcgouging not harm a portable machines welding. it really messes up the brushes and armeture so I wouldn't recomened doing it if you like the way your machine welds. just my 2cents
I think arc-gouging screw any welder up, engine driven or plug in. I can't tell you how many 6 and 8 packs i've used that were screwed up by someone gougin with them. Just to give an idea of how bad it hurts them, the repair welder on the rex spread I was on is already on his third pipe-pro. Don't use it for that unless you just want a new machine. Just my opinion.
We keep an old comander 300 around just for air arc it will screw up your machine big time go rent one for the job let the rental company deal with it.
That's right. Odds are is that it has already been used for it or didn't run right in the first place!
I have heard this as well, but I have to wonder if anybody ever thought of using "commom sense" with an air arc? If You have a 300 amp machine and You use 3/16 carbons and under 250 amps are You going to hurt it?
I unfortunatly cant back it up with experience, but I think If You limit the carbon size, amperage, voltage and duty cycle to what You are willing to arc weld with, what is the difference?
If You turn it to the max and use 5/8 carbons You are asking for problems. You might as well just hook the stinger and ground together and burn it up right.
Dave it still messes them up and I am not sure why I would think it has something to do with the inconsistent arc created using carbon rods. This would explain why you can run big rods and not hurt anything and carbons seem to give the machine a pulse while welding after heavy air arc use.
This is the first I have heard that it messes up a welder. I think Dave may have hit the nail on the head there. I have used mine on ocation but I use 5/32" carbons. I run a SA 250 classic II at around 225 to 250 amps, sure I could run a little bigger carbons and run it at max 325 amp but then the duty cycle is only 40%. I am sure you would fry it if you ran it at 90 to 100% at 325 amps. I have never noticed anything different after air arcing. One thing I can think of that might make a differance, I keep an armature stone in the truck and lightly clean the armature every once in a while, it keeps the brushes seated good and clean and the welder welds a lot better. Now if the armature and brushes are dirty and not making 100% contact I could see how cranking up to max could cause damage. just my 2 cents.
Years back one of the local welding shops that I had gotten to know the guys pretty good, we had gotten into a coversation about air arcing, the owner and head welder told me that the airarc rods were to expencive so he used 6011 rods instead and they worked fine. I never did try it, just figured he was probably full of it and I wasnt that poor that I could not aford them. anyone ever try this?
Tom
Maybe all you posters could be a little more specific about what you mean about "screw up" the welder. I use a Lincoln 300D (well its a Red D Arc - same as) and I gouge with it all the time - sometimes in CC and sometimes in CV modes - and I love how it welds. Put several thousand hours on it. Both 1/4 inch and 5/16 carbons on maximun setting. So what's the deal. Tell me. Tell me. T
I'm lucky enough to be a no talent hack, so I have never been able to tell the difference in my arc after gouging. And I have done lots of gouging with lots of machines.
Wrench Tech, those Red D Arc's are one tough machine. I know its a Lincoln generator but that Kubota engine is just about indestructible. And they do weld nice but that high rpm could be changed out with a low idle option.
how do you make one a low idle ?
I've Air Arc-ed using a Ranger 250 @ 250 amps, an Invertec V-350 Pro WIDE OPEN - 3/8" Flat Carbons@ 425 amps (through reels and 200' of #2/0 cable), and most recently a PowerMig 350 MP @250 amps (also through reels and 200' of #2/0 Cables) and I have seen no issues whatsoever.
I agree with the poster above that suggested not running the machines at max... Now, having said that, I DID pour the coal to that Invertec V-350 'cause I had to..... AND IT LOVED IT!!!!!.
I am quite surprised at the number of members that do not arc with their own machines. It's just a way of life up here. EVERYBODY does it with their own machines.
I guess the mindset up here is "If you need to get a rental, you have the wrong machine on your deck."
As always, Opinions vary.
I bit my tongue for a while to see if I was missing something. I have to agree with Dave, Wrench Tech, and a couple of others that finally got into this. I have used the same welders for gouging and welding for several years and never noticed any problem switching from air arc to welding. Welders have been 1)SAE 250- gouge with 1/4", weld with stick to 3/16 and wire LN 22 with NR 211 5/64; 2)Miller 500D same operations, 3) shop Lincoln welders with LN 7s, stick, and air arc. Work was on logging equipment repairs in the NW, CBI tank and pressure vessel jobs, pipe fabrication and repairs at a pipe and casing facility in the NW, and all kinds of applications over the past 12 years at my shop in AZ. Years of use, no brush problems, no welding problems.
I admit, 35 years as a certified professional welder probably doesn't qualify me to express an opinion that seems to run contrary to several who seem to have had bad experiences with this issue. For what it is worth, MY OPINION is that either the machines had something wrong with them in the first place or they were not adequate power sources to handle the work they were being used to do. One more possibility is that the people running the equipment were not competent at the processes and ruined the equipment. It is amazing how long my personal equipment lasts, or that which my son uses, compared to the life span of equipment that the hired guys use.
I have seen guys run 3/8 arc air electrodes at 600 amps. WHY? Much easier on the machine to run cooler. More control of the arc. Cleaner. They also waste several inches of electrode because of the heat.
Just my two tin pennies worth, Have A Great Day and a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!! Brent
thanks for all the input guys. This is a great forum i go to it for everything! thanks again.
I would also agree that arc gouging does not hurt your machine if you do it within your machines limits. I have gouged with mine and it didnt hurt it. Vantage 500 in case you wondered. Mine even has a mode selector for arc gouging
We gouge with my bigblue 400 alot, and I have yet to see a problem with the arc. I run wire, rods and scratch tig with it. I had a 301g go bad after 1000 hours that was used to gouge with 1/4 rods quite a bit.This machine ran great untill about 5 things went wrong at once. I have read that it could be from reels, not sure about that. I also have run a dimension 452 in the shop that has gouged at least 200 hours and the arc is very nice. I always try to keep the machine below max. Most of the time when a new guy is arc gouging they tend to run too hot and the rod is red hot for 4" and all the copper is smoking off. I feel that if you run within you machines ratings you will be ok.
I got a big blue 402D I air arc with it all the time the biggest air arc rod I use is a 3/8. I got it new about ten years ago it got 13500hrs on it never had any problem with it. It welds great. Got a some buddy that have got millers and lincoln that have said my machine welds good. Just try not to push it very much over its duty cycle.
U have only air arced on an MQ whisper weld welder but it seemed to handle it fine and weld O.K afterwards. We only had it for a week so I couldn't tell you about longevity tests. But I will say I have burn't up just about every kind of electric machine manufacured short of maybe a Kemppi but that is just because we don't get those. But Miller, Lincoln, Redi-arc(I know lincoln), Thermal arc, Esab, Powcon, Westinghouse, and Hobarts have failed the test. Boilermakes usually use machines set up in an 4 or 8 pack configuration. The machine are any where from 185 to 400 amps by themselves but we marry two of them together with a special whip to get double amperage. I have seen guys join more machines but I did not see any discernable gain in power and heard that it actually hinders amperage and leads to greater machine damage than normal. What I really think( which means take it with a grain of salt) depends is on the manner you run your carbons. Some guys like burying the rod and finding there crack or desired depth and keep on going till they have to adjust rod or change out. Other guys like taking short snips out of the metal and keep going along half an inch or so at a time. I run both ways depending on what I am doing and how critical it is. Either way we usually have 400 to 800 amps to the stinger. And alot of machines have flat out failed or suffer major weld characteristic flaws and adjustment control flaws. We rarely use large amperage machines but I have ussed Redi- arc and lincoln ideal arc 600 and 800 for gouging only. I never got use them afterwards for welding so I can't whether there welding characteristics were effected. Personally I try not to over do it at home with air arc but on the job time is money and they want you burning up stingers and leads.
Well I don't know about how yall run yalls machine but the wear and tear on my machine comes out of my pocket so I am going to baby it and take care of it. My welder is how I make my living. That one of the reason I don't have employees because alot of them (not all) don't care.
I agree with you totally and don't recommend running huge amps but it is hard when you are 200 to 600 feet from your machine and you got a hard headed foreman sneaking over there and cranking up the amps on you.
they touch my machine Ill cut thier fingers off.
I have gouged with my 200 burning 1/4 and 5/32 gouge rods and neve had a lick of trouble no it wasnt all dayy but i used it and it welded just as good if not better when i got done
I have a Vantage 300 that I air arc with,welds fine ,no issues with it. As stated don`t exceed duty cycle. This is also the first I`ve heard that it can mess up a welder.
By Superflux 
Date 01-05-2009 07:39
Edited 01-05-2009 07:42
Been welding since the end of the "Bronze Age" and since the beginning I've heard about how gouging will ruin ANY welding machine. I have yet to see ANY machine be negatively affected by the gouging process of and by itself. Now, I've watched welders spraying their sparks right onto and all over the machines; this aint good for them, or seen out put terminals and lead connections burned up due to loose and or corroded fittings and cables. Never had a Maintenance/Electrician hold up some fried thing-a-ma-doo-hickey and tell me "Yep! That there gizmo blows up every time you welders go to gouging! Job security for me!".
If this process was so inherently detrimental to welding machines, my question is... Does any manufacturer place placards "Do Not Air Arc!" on the machine or include a disclaimer in the owner's manual, "Warranty Void if Used for Air Arcing"?
I'm thinking another industrial legend that took hold and traversed generations.
I don't "think" that the electricity usage for a gouging electrode is any different than a simlarly rated welding electrode. I have hear the "wives tale" for many years and like so many of the posts have never seen any evidence supporting the claim.
I watched a powcon 300ST dead grounded and left overnight and came in the next morning to weld with it. That thing screamed all night long but was fine the next day.
I have often thought the constant UP/DOWN could be an issue but I would think that would be more on engine drives and also if that were the case then I would have to guess that a machine is mimited to a number of arc strikes.
poorly maintained machines with bat connections, improperly working coolong fans etc could also be subject to damage from high current loads however I don't see where the machine knows the difference.
The common misconception I see is that to gouge you max out the machine. That could allow one to exceed the duty cycle as sometimes the rated duty cycle of the machine is well below t he max current output.
Just thought I'd throw in my opinion.
Air arcing will total your machine in less than 10 minutes, unless you take your torch and drive the moisture out of the steel before gouging it.
On verticals, you have to gouge uphill only!
There really is a tooth fairy.
JTMcC ; )
Thanks JT, We needed someone to properly direct this thread.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Don't for get to deguass and get a gigaflop modulator as well.
from what i understand it is when the machine is turned up too high for the rod size or the operator does not travel fast enough and it "chatters"that damage can occur.
on dc generator models with out a circuit board the only thing that can really happen is the machine can be used outside of its parameters, ie too big a rod. and it shuts down because of thermal protection circuits
with all the machines in our shop we are not allowed to use them for gouging unless they are a designated machine for gouging. we have bullet 800s for the work horse stuff and a few older lincoln rectifiers for some of the lighter stuff. if you were to use a inverter or one of the welding only designated machines to gouge with you would get sent home.
although i agree with most of what has been said by jtmcc and others saying it is alright to gouge with any machine if done correctly, ive also seen many a machine **** the bed and have to go to the welder hospital after gouging. a welder tech who was the head welder tech at the miller factory (a man whose opinion i highly respect as ive found him to have a 'doctorate' in welding machines, never met a smarter welding machine tech) highly reccomends not gouging with anything with a circuit board. again referencing the thousands of stop starts that happen when gouging is done incorrectly.
me personally i would not gouge with a machine that is going to be used for tig, specialty alloy wire or intricate pipe work, unless it was a do or die situation
just my two cents
darren
