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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / transverse crack
- - By doyenofcastle (**) Date 01-01-2009 10:13 Edited 01-01-2009 10:21
last week we found crack in the area shown in the picture transverse to the welding bead , we make repairing by grinding the area but perpendicular to the crack because of the narrow area of crack then weld again but after welding crack happen again then repairing by same procedure twice and crack happened and propagate in the shaft,then after we make grinding perpendicular to the crack we make gringing in the crack propagation line after welding no indication ,my question is
1-why the crack repaired when we make grinding in two perpendicular way?
2- reasons of the transverse crack ?
shaft material C4140,main material ASTM 572 GR50 thickness 50 mm  and beveled ,preheat 230C,shaft dia :60 cm
electrode E11018G
1:perpendicular grinding
2: crack line grinding
Attachment: Image038.jpg (160k)
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 01-01-2009 17:21
   Do you know if the electrode E11018G was what they used on the original WPS.
                          
                                              MG
Parent - - By doyenofcastle (**) Date 01-01-2009 18:40
yeah after we check this material C4140 and ASTM 572 we choose low hydrogen electrode according to the CE.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-12-2009 02:24 Edited 01-12-2009 02:38
Hello doyenofcastle:

I'm no expert and I hate to be an "armchair" consultant on something like this, but since you asked, I'll do my best.

Make sure the shaft is in the annealed condition before attempting to weld it. Use a hand file on the shaft to make sure you can "take a cut". If the file glides over the surface of the steel without cutting, it is too hard to weld in the current condition. A hand file will give you a good feel for the hardness of the shaft.

Verify the  entire crack is removed by using wet fluorescent magnetic particle testing to test the excavation before beginning your preheat. The excavation should extend pass the crack tip by about 50 mm. While grinding, don't let the shaft heat up be more than 80 C. Grind from beyond the crack tip toward the center-line and repeat from the opposite crack tip. Grinding hard and heavy can cause the shaft to heat up locally and cause the crack to propagate.

It appears you are welding it with low hydrogen shielded metal arc electrodes. That is good, but the AISI 4140 is highly hardenable if the preheat isn't sufficiently. Hydrogen introduced into the weld puddle is one of many enemies you have to control. To minimize the diffusible hydrogen, I would suggest that any low hydrogen electrode be baked before use. I would suggest the bake-out temperature to be about 400 degree C for one hour before use. A rather short window for exposure is recommended. No more than 1 hour out of the "hot box" or electrode holding oven. An alternative to low hydrogen shielded metal arc electrodes is to use GMAW spray mode transfer or GTAW (very uncomfortable welding) due to their use of bare filler metal, i.e., no flux coating to absorb moisture, thus they are considered to be low hydrogen welding processes.

The AISI 4140 has a very high CE, so high preheat is required. The diameter is large as well, so it offers high restraint, thus a second reason to use very high preheat. I would consider something on the order of 370 degrees C and a stress relief post weld heat treatment. SR would entail heating the entire weldment to about 620 degrees C for about 25 hours (1 hour plus 1 additional hour for each 25 mm of thickness). Slow cool after stress relief. Preheat must be maintained during the entire welding cycle.

You are contending with very high restraint. From a strength standpoint, you want the weld to be as strong as the base metal you are welding, but the residual stresses are causing transverse cracks. I would suggest considering using a lower strength low hydrogen electrode such as an E9018-H4 or ER90S-X. This is a repair, so something is better than nothing. The lower strength electrode will allow the weld metal to yield as it cools without over stressing the 4140 shaft and causing transverse cracks to form. Something has to "give" when you make a weld. Either the weld has to yield, the shaft has to yield, or a crack is going to form. The shaft isn't going to yield, it is too thick and too strong. You have to allow the weld to yield without the weld or shaft cracking as a means of accommodating the residual stresses in the base metal that are of the same magnitude as the yield strength of the base metal (C4140) at temperature (a moving target as the base metal cools and the magnitude of the residual stress increases).

This shaft isn't a good candidate for a field repair. A shop where proper annealing can be performed, oven preheating, and stress relief capabilities are needed to ensure a successful repair. A field repair is very difficult to do because of the high preheat and soak times (let me repeat myself; soak time) required to ensure the entire shaft is uniformly heated to the minimum preheat temperature. You should consider wrapping the shaft with insulation to retard cooling and to make life a little more bearable for you (the welder) during the welding cycle.

The Ms is about 350 C and the Mf is about 330 C, so a preheat of about 370 C is about right to ensure the austenite doesn't decay to form hard martensite. The idea is to retard the cooling rate from the highest temperatures attained while the weld bead is still liquid and the HAZ is austenized down to the preheat temperature which is above the Ms temperature. Hopefully the cooling rates are sufficiently slow to allow the austenite to transform (decay) into something more benign, i.e., not as hard or as brittle as the martensite.

One last thought. Use run-off tabs at the end of the crack excavations so that you can initiate and terminate individual weld beads on the tabs that can be cut off when the weld is completed. The run-off tabs are welded to the shaft after the shaft is preheated to the proper temperature. See attachments below.

You have a Tiger by the tail my friend.

There may be someone reading this that has ideas of their own. Their council may be worth considering. Good luck.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-12-2009 08:14 Edited 01-12-2009 08:18
Al,

your advice is worth gold, always!

If there would have been 4 diamonds, I would have chosen 4.

Best regards from England,
Stephan

Edit: "I'm no expert..." - this little detail of your post would be suitable to "Jokes, post them up!" :-)
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 01-12-2009 19:57
I can't help myself, but I truly can't understand which silly billy has rated 'doyenofcastle's' post with a "1"!

What's wrong with his post?

Isn't it the goal of this the 'world's greatest welding forum' that nobody(!) should be concerned about asking serious meant questions without the fear to being hit to the ground?

He has asked a serious question and has received the surely best serious answer he could get on this planet - at least from the distance, period!

This meanwhile is truly way above my head!
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 01-12-2009 20:41
I agree Stephan, That is why I would like to see ratings go away. they don't serve any purpose other than to let someone(anonomous) show how intelligent they are!
Parent - By HgTX (***) Date 01-21-2009 00:02
Wait, is one diamond a rating of one out of three, where one is bad and three is good, or is it one bonus gold star sticker on the paper as opposed to the normal zero bonus gold star stickers, where zero is normal, one is really good, two is great, three is never seen better?  I would have thought since most posts have no rating, that one diamond means a better post more than no rating at all, not that it's only a one on a scale of one to three.

Hg
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-13-2009 03:33
You're too kind Stephan.

As for the ratings, I don't rate questions, just replies and only those that provide sound technical reasoning. How can you give a poor rating to someone that asks a serious question? While it may appear to be a basic question, that is the purpose of the forum; to answer those basic questions on the subject of welding and joining in general. After, how do you give a fella a poor rating for ask what welding cap is best?

I hesitated answering this questions. I expected to hear from you or one of our other respected members. This one is a toughie to work through. I just hope the advice is something that makes sense.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 01-13-2009 15:25
Thanks Al!

Your quote:

"I don't rate questions, just replies and only those that provide sound technical reasoning."

says it all!

Best regards and take care,
Stephan
Parent - By doyenofcastle (**) Date 01-12-2009 15:06
I'd like to thank you too much for your explanation .I wish to explain more about my appreciate for your response but nothing can explain .again thank you .
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-12-2009 21:02
Al...he might also want to make sure the groove for repair is made in such a way as to maintain a good width to depth ratio.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 01-13-2009 03:27
Good point JW.

I usually recommend a width to depth ratio of 2 for the first 3/8 inch, and then conform to a standard prequalified U-groove from AWS D1.1. It works for me!

Best regards - Al 
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / transverse crack

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