Hello LCpl. Basnett, from your description of the program that you have enrolled in it sounds as if you are receiving a very good basic introduction into a couple of avenues that can lead you into some definite career paths. The SMAW cert. that you speak of is likely a 1" unlimited plate test, this particular test, in my area, will get your foot in the door for a number of the crafts. The ironworkers would give you credit for having this one, believe it or not, the electricians, carpenters, millwrights, and a number of others will also give you credit for this accomplishment. A general pipe cert., depending upon the particular diameter and method of welding or combination of processes can certainly help you with the pipefitters, boilermakers, pilebucks, and others who are involved in the welding of pipe. Pressure vessel certs. tend to be targeted mainly to the boilermakers, yet they could also probably help you with the pipefitters and possibly pilebucks as well. All of the above that I have mentioned have a considerable amount of overlap as far as skills go, so really any of the skills that you achieve in your particular program should assist you greatly once you get out and pursue a particular job. I have referenced many of the trade unions in the commentary above, there are also many non-union applications where any of these skills can be applied, so depending upon where you go and how you begin your start you will definitely have a good base to work your way up from. If you have the time while you are in school it wouldn't hurt to contact some of the unions and get a feel for what they have to offer and how their particular programs are structured. It might also be a good idea to make the rounds of some of the employers that you feel might be doing the type of work that you are interested in and get a feel for exactly what they do, how they do it, the wages that can be had, and the types of benefits that are available along with the wages. I'm sure you already know that the hourly wage isn't always the determining factor for landing a job that is satisfying, pays the bills, and provides the type of lifestyle that you might be striving for.
On a personal note, I always enjoy conversing with individuals who show drive and purpose with regards to their futures. I believe you are one of these individuals, I wish you the best of fortune and would "certainly look forwards to working alongside you one of these days". Best regards, Allan
Edit: I just remembered something that I should have included before. There is a program that is called "Helmets to Hardhats", if you haven't heard of it you should try to get some information on it. I don't have any personal knowledge of it, but I have heard mention of it here on the forum and I have also heard various bits and pieces in passing conversations and articles. There might be some valuable inroads for you through this particular program.
Mr. Allan,
I have a few more questions for you. Last night while doing break tests, (you know where you weld the T joint and break the weld, to see the penetration of your weld) I realized after doing two root passes with 6010 @100 amps, that I'm not getting any good penetration. Now I know that 6010 SMAW rods are deep penetrating rods, and when I weld flat plates, I don't have trouble with them; but, when I tried my T joint, I'm adhereing too much to one surface or the other, and not getting that good deep color changing penetration on the rear of the weld or the bottom plate; what would you suggest? I was testing this way on 3/8" CS plates, and was only running cover welds from what they looked like once we broke them. Also, Are you an instructor anywhere near Texas? That's where I'm from so, once I get out, we might actually cross paths. I was pretty upset that my welds weren't looking how I like them look, as well as not getting the penetration that I needed, because I knew that I could do better, but, once it got down to running the beads, it went downhill fast. I also have to say on my behalf, to try to save some of my dignity, I haven't run a T joint with 6010 before, the ones that I'm more comfortable with are the 7018, because that's what I've used for almost all of my experience.
Cpl. Basnett
Lots of professional welders have a hard time with the fillet break test the first time they take one.. The technique is not more difficult but it is different than that of a groove weld.
The objective of the fillet break test is to see if the weld fuses at the front intersection of the vertical and horizontal planes. If the sheared edge of the vertical member is melted, this indicates sufficient penetration.
Don't worry about seeing anything on the back side of a 3/8" thick plate.
This test is not about strength, it is about fusion at the root.
My students are doing this test right now... We are contrasting the difference in penetration between E6010, E7014 and E7024 electrodes... We run the E6010 @ 100A, the E7014 110A and the E7024 @ 125A. Each electrode has a different Fluxing system (F3, F2 & F1) and even with the stepped up current the E7024's almost never dig as deep as the E6010.
Electrode angle is the key to getting fusion on these tests... If your rod angle is correct and your weld is sticking only to one side of the fillet you may be encountering Arc Blow.... Your instructor should have some remedies for this and If not let us know... There are a number of logical steps to deal with Arc blow that usually work.
BTW... Thank you for your Service!
How do you tell if your on the recieveing end of arc blowback? Is there some tell tale sign of this? Thanks-LCpl. Basnett
Hello Elijah, first off Lawrence has given you some spot-on information about the purpose and achievement of sound fillet welds. Now to your question about arc-blow. Keep in mind that when you are performing most "industrial" arc welding you will be using a DC power source of some type. Since you are using DC the electron flow is directional and sets up a "magnetic field" or as others might refer to it, it causes "magnetic flux", these fields have the capability to "pull the arc" in various directions. When everything is happening as it should be, the welding arc will come off the end of the electrode and make it's way to the weld joint in a nice even column and essentially go where you point it. Sometimes, however, due to grounding issues that can come about for any number of reasons this "magnetic field" will act upon the arc and pull it to one side of the joint or the other, or possibly cause it to make the arc "blow" out the back of the puddle towards the previously deposited metal. It might also "pull" the arc to one plate or the other in groove or fillet type weld joints. I won't go into a lot of detail about arc blow just yet, instead, use the search function of the forum and enter "arc blow" in the search box, you will find a bunch of commentary on this particular subject, it's causes, possible remedies, and other information on the topic. Generally you should try to make sure that your ground is securely attached to the piece you are welding on and you are welding away from the ground. There are certainly many situations where welding away from the ground isn't readily achievable and this isn't always an automatic cause for arc blow. If you have a grounded table or work arm be sure that the part you are welding on is making a good connection to it and not resting on a lot of spatter or slag and other "stuff" that could interfere with it. Have some more fun now and let us know how it goes. Best regards, Allan
Mr. Allan,
Ok, I've found some old but very interesting threads, and it has really peaked my curiosity. I understand that in order to weld on most materials, it is caused by the ferrous elements of the base material, due to the fact that it can polarized, etc, right? So, what I'm wondering is that I pretty sure that aluminum is not a ferrous metal, so it is still a metal, so it can carry a current, but, can you or can you not reverse polarities such as with an AC stick welder, weld aluminum or similar metals? From what I'm thinking you can't do this due to it being a polarizing material, so that means that all TIG and MIG (FCAW) are operated solely on DC. But, with the Demaging procedure wouldn't it create an electromagnet? and how does the arcing drop the polarity? This seems like something out of a bad science-fiction movie. I'd also like to know if this really does work, then with my previous situation the easiest thing for me to do would be take my negative lead and wrap it around the leg of my work table and slowly arc off the table, with my work piece on it, until the arc won't start due to the walking down of amperage in increments of 20 amps? I must apologize, due to the massive amount of questions, but, like I said, this subject has really peaked my interests. thanks-LCpl. Basnett
Hello again Elijah, I don't know that your terminology is totally accurate or correct, but that's really not important at this point. Just about "any" electrically conductive metal can be welded. Some are best welded with a particular current or polarity and that can be dependent upon the process, filler material, and even shielding gas in some cases. You mentioned aluminum, it can be welded with Oxy-acetylene, GTAW(either AC or DCEN current), GMAW (straight CV or Pulsed), SMAW, friction-stir, explosively welded, and possibly a few others I can't remember at the moment. Depending upon the situation and equipment availability, an individual would have to select the particular one that would best suit their situation. As you are continuing your education, be sure to pick your instructor's brains with all of these questions, they will likely have plenty of information for you to consider and give you additional perspectives to consider as well. Gotta run for now. Best regards, Allan
Mr. Allan,
Well good news, I've gotten more comfortable with doing T joints, and I also completed multi-pass welds on them. The only bead that I've been having trouble with is the Z bead, as a covering pass. I get the whole motion, but, I don't understand the point of this type of weld except for appearances. with the root passes, the inverted T and the whip and pause beads are I go with, and a crescent or J bead is what I mainly do on the second, but, putting the z bead on top of this is pretty ridiculous, because I don't think it distributes an even puddle compared to a longer pause on the whip and pause method. Am I correct in this assumption, or am I wrong? thanks-LCpl. Basnett
Hello Elijah, as with most things, each has it's place and purpose. There are some places in the trades where the "weave" that you are describing has been limited or even eliminated. In some cases this has to do with the HAZ that is generated from the additional concentration of heat while applying this method. In other parts of the trade this isn't so much of an issue and this method is widely used. The various codes make inferences as to what is allowable and not allowable concerning width and depth of a single weld bead. Here again, this is based upon specific applications and in many instances has to do with the material make-up. In cases where there might be adverse metallurgical or mechanical effects due to the heat generated by a weld pass there might be limitations imposed concerning bead size to prevent or minimize these effects. This is part of why you will likely discuss topics such as: Pre-heat, Post-heat, and Interpass temperatures in some of the theory and lecture portions of your training. Try your best to become proficient with all of the various methods that you are shown. As time passes, you will likely figure out particular methods or styles that work for you and develop your "signature" with regard to welding styles. Keep in mind as well that there are basic requirements of the weld beads that you lay down. So long as the finished bead meets or exceeds the particular requirement that it is intended for, ie: correct width, height, form, and size, and is considered to possess acceptable amounts of undercut as deemed by the particular code that governs the welding, doesn't show unacceptable levels of lack of fusion at the toes or root of the weld, then how you actually get there is really a non-issue. Hope this explains a bit more of your questions. Best regards, Allan
Mr.Allan,
Sorry it has taken so long to reply to your last, but, I've been experiencing a lot of different types of positions, and have been loving it. I've almost mastered overhead multipass with 6010, and the vertical has gotten so much easier. I've found that with whip and pause that I either go to far with the whip or break off the arc altogether and restart at the next spot. I've heard that this is called start-stop method, but, I'm not certain on that. This method has produced some very nice stack of dimes effects within the weld, and has helped with stricking and restricking the arc, but, I'm not sure of the strength of the welds. I let the previous pool cool for a split second and strike and pause right ontop of it. Maybe I'm just reverting back to my start and stop strike drills that I was taught when I first learned to weld. hopefully this method produces strong welds due to the cooling time of the pool and then the build up of the new arc on top of it, because it works very well for me, and produces some really cool fish scale effects if spaced out wide enough. thanks for the help, LCpl. Basnett, USMC
Hello Elijah, if I am understanding your comments here regarding vertical beads, you are striking and forming a weld pool, terminating the arc momentarily, and then restarting the arc to form the next weld pool on top of it to end up with the "stacked dimes" effect for your bead profile. My personal thoughts on that method would be that I wouldn't employ that approach. Since I haven't personally tried that method I don't know that I can say that it won't work. The mechanical soundness of that method might not be there due to the constant break and reapply method that you are using to progress with the bead. Cellulosic rods rely on the gaseous cloud generated by the burning of the fluxes to properly protect the weld metal and pool, a constantly intermittent generation of this cloud by starting and stopping the arc might interfere with the action required of this shielding method to provide a sound bead. As I said, this is only a personal comment and not based on evidence to support an issue with this approach. Have your instructors said anything to you about the way you have approached this? I would be curious to hear their assessments of your method. You might also consider doing some destructive testing or other types of testing to determine if you have any issues coming from your technique and effecting the soundness of the weld metal. Do you see any visible signs of pores/holes at any points along the bead? When you reach the end of this bead do you see any bubbles or signs of crater porosity? Try grinding about 1/2 of the top of the bead off and then carefully sanding it with a fairly fine grit of sanding disc/pad, then look carefully at this surface with a magnifying glass to see if you notice any pores/holes. If you have access to any dye penetrant materials see about doing a dye penetrant check of this sanded surface to see if there are any indications that result from this check. I will be interested to hear more about this. Please don't take this as a negative criticism, but more so as a point of interest, I can certainly learn too. Best regards, Allan
Elijah, I'd like to step in on this letting the arc go out. First and foremost, this lag time is not conducive to production. Period. In the construction field, it takes forever to deliver the parts, get a crane, rig it up, fit the piece. But hey, when it comes to the welding...oh my!, it's gotta get done NOW! And...We welders tend to be highly motivated when it comes to getting it done fast and burning more rod and often our jobs are on the line cuz time is money.
It is one of those gap filling and other "special use" tricks / applications handy to use when things get too hot.
As Allan metioned, the cellulose fluxed rods are highly dependant upon the sheilding gasses.
A theory of mine is that the intense heat and continuous/nonstop welding that is so typical of pipeliners (where 6010 type rods are used for the entire weld) helps cook out the hydrogen. To demonstrate, try these two experiments. Make two arc strikes on opposite sides (180 apart) on a piece of pipe, one with 6010 and the other with 7018. Let cool, brush off any slag and then file them down slowly. I think you will notice how much "softer" the 7018 is compared to the 6010. Now, tack down 2 pieces of plate (the same size of course to be acurate for our test) with 1/4" long tacks, onto another with each type rod, let cool. then break them off (tapping lightly with a small hammer like you were adjusting the fit) and notice how brittle the 6010 is over the lo-hi. Nothing scientific, just my own experience from fitting for welders (on structural shapes) who always want to tack with 5p (usually not to code) and then it breaks off if you need to tweak it into place (I don't let them, if they argue, i just tell them "you are a fusion machine and I'll pull you out of the tool box to use when and as I see fit! Then fill out the hurt feelings report!)
When ever we are learning anything new, speed increases with experience and familiarity. I think, you are just not quick enough on the draw yet and need that extra time (by breaking arc) to be more accurate to produce that stack of dimes/fishscale. As your coordination and visual acuity increases so too will that bead appearance.
It is just like learning a musical instrument, practice what seems like forever with no improvement and then suddenly it all comes together and you're playing Stairway to Heaven just like Jimmy Page!
Hang in there, it will all come together!
John
Hello John, thanks for including that information, some very good points. Especially the part about the differences between tacks/welds made with E7018 versus E6010. As you also mentioned, Elijah simply needs to give things a chance and practice, practice, practice. Hope everything is going well for you and best regards, Allan
Thanks for that good info. I've long since learned the err of my ways, I showed my instructor, and he told me the same thing that you said, that this is a "cheat" for when you have your amps set too high, and can't get to the machine right away. I do notice that this is especially helpful to know when I'm doing overhead open butt joints, and I've worked with this position that I got pretty burned out on it. I've done a lot of improvement since I last posted, as I've learned the basics of oxy welding, and a lot of the other cool things that I never thought about welding. I've also started running pipe, and I've noticed that almost, if not all, pipe gaps are 3/32" is this the standard width of most pipe gaps, or is it just for learning purposes? I also noticed that you said that tacking with 5p is more brittle than basic 6010, is it due the flux, or is the filler metal weaker than standard 6010? I've also noticed that when I do my cover pass with 1/8" 7018, that I feel like I'm running it too fast because I'm using a smaller amount of the electrode than with the 3/32" 7018 hot pass; is this common or is it the optical illusion that I'm using the same amount of filler metal, but, since it is a wider rod, that it looks like I'm going too fast. When this happens, if I try to slow it down, my cover pass becomes massively wide, more than the 2 widths wide welds that are needed. I really appreciate your help with this, and for your support, Thanks-LCpl. Basnett, USMC
USMC,
Did I say 5P? Sorry, MY BAD, whip me with a length of #000 lead..Do they even still make it?
5P is an old Lincoln trademark, much like HELI-ARC was Linde's(?) trade mark for GTAW, for their formula of the original E6010. I appologize for any misunderstanding or confusion. There are so many archaic and generic terms in this business, and I try to to be as technically correct as possible in this forum.
So, my post was entirely directed towards the mechanical properties of the cellulose based fluxes ie. XX10 and XX11 when tacking vs. a multi-pass weld. To answer your question, all the XX10 and XX11 are going to have similar brittleness.
Glad to hear you're making progress. Nothing wrong with "cheating" as long as it is recognized as such and does not become ingrained into a bad habit or technique.
As you increase rod diameter, it is going to require a greater degree of skill to obtain a similar level of quality. Leading or trailing angle of the rod aside...you often need to point the rod towars the toe of the bead as in not just moving the rod back and forth, but to angle the rod by twisting the wrist and sometimes to accomplish this requires an articulation of the forearm and or the elbow. Kinda one of them things that is easier shown than written.
With larger rods (more amps) comes higher deposition rate. It is a retraining of the "eye" to realize that the deposit is going to be wider and thicker/deeper. In other words, to have a bead with E7018 1/8" rod (in the vertical up progression) the same width as one with a 3/32" rod, there is a high possibility of slag entrapment and a "ropey" bead profile, or too high of crown.
Hope all that made sense.
Suprisingly the 6010 5p is still around and of course it's still being made by lincoln, in fact I was using some a few days ago for roots on pipe. I've actually had some great success with going from the 3/32" to the 1/8" 7018 rods and from 3/32" to the 1/16" 6010, but, I'm having problems with training on the vertical cert plates, because when I get a high spot on my root, even after grinding it down, I think that it's affecting the overall out come of the weld. I think it's also caused by my not cooling the plate between passes. I produced one of the ugliest welds last night on 3/8" CS plates in 3G, I mean I had the whole mess of problems, slight under cut, bunching at the face and thinning at the root, some slag inclusions, and over the 1/16" bead height. It was horrible, it looked like slug with braided hair was crawling up the plate. This frustrated me, because I could have run the same beads overhead and made them look beautiful. I know you not supposed to weave overhead, but, you get the point right? I think I was rushing too much or something, but, maybe it was just one of those days where every other bead looks like a turd, and the next is just trying to clean it up. "If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."
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