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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / MT Question?
- - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 01-22-2009 18:55
MT Question?

I seem to remember that when performing a Mag Particle inspection if you have a small plate with welds that need to be mt inspected one could butt a plate up against the small plate to allow for acceptable leg spacing. My question is has any1 else heard of done this before? I thought I read it somewhere but cannot remember. Any thoughts?
MDK
Parent - - By mroach (**) Date 01-22-2009 19:11
How small of a plate is it? What are the dimensions?      MR
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-22-2009 19:31
Don't forget that the flux field in real close proximity to the legs of a contour probe are not defined enough to show you anything, so it needs to be large enough to accomadate that. Make use of your pie gage to verify the direction of the lines of force.
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 01-22-2009 19:39
I did use a pie gage to verify that i do get indications in the area of intrest. i used plates so i can keep the legs straight for the inspection. like i said i couldnt remember if this was an acceptable practice, any1 know if this is in any books or codes?
THE Piece is a approx 3 x 3 x 1/2
mdk
Parent - By mroach (**) Date 01-22-2009 20:02
Closest in ASTM E709 would be the indirect magnetization method, however that requires a central conductor for a hollow part.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-23-2009 20:31
If it's not specifically prohibited, then by silence or specific mention it's allowed. mock up can proof the ability of the system to find a discontinuity, I see no problem with it.
However; just for giggles, try this. Lay that pie gauge on top of an inch of wood, 6" of pole spacing and see if you can pull the pie gauge. It could make for interesting results.
Parent - By mroach (**) Date 01-24-2009 16:00
I whole heartly agree. ASTM E709 is merely a guide for magnetic particle examination. How the individual devolopes a technique, sensitivity and verification is stricly up to the governing code or is agreed upon. 
Parent - - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 01-26-2009 19:09
JUST FOR GIGGLES.........
I get a good indication of field strength...........
mdk
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-27-2009 02:22
Imagine that
Parent - - By ndeguy (*) Date 01-27-2009 10:05
This just proves that the yoke is kicking out magnetic flux - the lift test gives a more quantitative demonstration of this, ie 10lbs for AC and 40lbs for DC. The flux has to complete its circuit and whether wood or air, it will do so. Its similar to positioning an energised yoke beneath a thin piece of cardboard strewn with iron filings - no other metal in sight but the filings will adopt the familiar magnetic field pattern present in the air. Just like X or gamma radiation, cos we cant see it does not mean it is not not there!
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-27-2009 12:50
There are a lot of people out there that don't comprehend the fact that the flux field is there, metal or no metal. Demonstrating that field does not equal flaw sensitivity nor will it ever for that reason.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-27-2009 15:37
You know the field strength is there...but why won't any filings show a pattern in close proximity to the legs?....check via your thin cardboard test with filings on top. I know the field is plenty strong, but like you said, sensitivity to find flaws is messed up...could it be because there is too much turbulance around the legs so the field is not defined and lined up at that distance?

close up of one of the legs


farther back showing both legs
Parent - - By ndeguy (*) Date 01-28-2009 11:14
Nice images, John, thank you. No, i have no knowledge of why the filings are in that pattern. Your idea of "turbulence", or incoherence, is perhaps on the right track, the total field strength in the filing-free region should be so much weaker than in the adjacent regions (immediately around the pole piece and some distance removed from it) that it is not strong enough to prevent the adjacent stronger field from "robbing" it of its filings.

In practical terms I'll know now not to abut the poles close up to the area of interest but to keep them somewhat removed so that possible discontinuities will not get missed through lack of sufficient flux leakage in that area.
Parent - By Mikeqc1 (****) Date 01-28-2009 15:15 Edited 01-28-2009 15:20
What I have noticed is when you energize the yoke and begin to apply powder between the legs, midway between the legs the powder takes on the familiar pattern of flux lines. But I have noticed that all around the legs there is a bare spot where no powder builds up, as I apply the powder I can see how after it hits the wood it is immediately drawn to the leg. is this just because the magnetic force is great enough to pull all the powder to the leg.
BASICLY THE POWDER IS JUST DOING WHAT ITS DESIGNED TO DO BE MOBILE AND BE DRAWN TO FLUX LEAKAGE.
MDK
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 01-29-2009 18:09
Your question is a tough one, and one that no hard fast rule to my knowledge has approached. However;

In Particle physics, a force carrier for the particles could be an electromagnetic force. Pauli "pauli exclusion principle" states that no two identical fermions (particles) can occupy the same quantum state simultaneously. (part of what I believe enforces the spacing between magnetic lines of force)
If this is true, then the quantum spin would be associated with angular momenta, but since it's also associated with electromagnetism for obvious reasons, the particle spin would also have to take into account wave particle duality (Maxwell/plank/Einstein etc)

The only way I've been able to find for that to come together is to use Werner Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle.

Getting to wave mechanics, there is constructive and destructive interference. Since the combined work of Pauli, Maxwell, Plank, Einstein, and to a degree faraday, and some others seem to share common ground in this regards, and that it's generally accepted scientific theory for electromagnetism to be both wave and particle, and that no known magnetic source has ever been found to be monopole, there would almost have to be both a superposition constructive interference point and just away from it a destructive interference point at or near the exits/entrances of the poles of a magnet and or electromagnet.

If this is the case, then every single magnetic source would exhibit the same signs of super positioning and destructive interference.
The earth exhibits such a sign, a bar magnet, and an electromagnet.

What that means to me in regards to your picture is, the points of collection directly over the legs where dust has collected would be the super positioned point of saturation with a destructive interference zone shortly thereafter, until the spin momenta stretched out and the wave form of the flux line connected in a pulsating manner with it's opposite pole. (the pulsation due to the negative / positive spin momenta depending on which specific line of force in question).

That's my opinion of why the picture is as it is for what it's worth. However; no one really knows for sure, and I've never seen anyone try to explain so I was left to my own devices. I may be wrong, but there it is.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By ndeguy (*) Date 02-11-2009 15:35
Great description Gerald! i couldnt put it into those words with that level of knowledge to support it, but it was what I was trying to say with "incoherence" - selective memory loss prevented me from recalling the terms "constructive and destructive magnetic flux density interference". I was thinking along the lines of the Near Field from an UT probe and how the maximum beam intensity is a near field length away from the transducer due to diffraction interference. In terms of magnetic field strength, the field strength found at the pole and at the constructive interference position remote from the pole is sufficiently strong to prevent the resting of particles at internediate positions.

In practical terms the reduced area between the poles of sufficient magnetic field strength to ensure detection of indications should be taken into account.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / MT Question?

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