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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Special Inspections
- - By clutch (*) Date 01-26-2009 00:08
I wanted to kind of get a consensus on welding inspections per IBC chapter 17, in various regions of the country. Obviously the west coast is the most stringent, but what about the others. I would like to see if I could get some of you inspectors to check in repersenting your region and let me know how by the books your areas are. I'm in the STL. Mo. area and its not good. I see buildings going up all the time with steel framing and no inspection. alot of times Im hired by the general contractor and when I reject connections it upsets them and they never call me back to reinspect.and when I do have inspection jobs there sorta half a@$ and not to the code. I never get welding certs, never get WPS, hardly ever do perinstallation verification on bolts, never see rod ovens or proper bolt storage.  the building officials in this area dont seem to care if SI's are performed or not. the company I work for we are putting together seminars to promote SI. but it hasnt worked thus far. alot of the towns say they send their city inspectors to inspect things but they are not specialized as we are and they should concur with us before alowing permits, plus according to IBC their inspection should not take place of ours. does anyone have any ideas how to spark the movement here? Im just affraid with this economy the way it is inspections will fade even more. it will probably take a catastrophy where people die before manicipalities wake up!
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 01-26-2009 00:30
Does the St Louis area have a history of building collapses, or individual weld failures?

JTMcC.
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 01-26-2009 00:58
Clutch,
What you described is exactly the way it is here in North Carolina.
There are a few jobs now and then that has SI's but most commercial jobs(schools, prisons, hospitals, barracks, etc) only get the minimum that the contract documents require.
SI's may drop in on some job's once a week or before a floor is going to be poured. They will do all required NDE as necessary.
When I left heavy industry and went into commercial industry I was amazed at how little inspection was done.
The only job that I personally have been on that had SI in the last 7 years was at Wilmington. I'm sure it was due to hurricane zone.
The GC and ACOE do have QC personnel but they are not specialized in welding and bolt-up and often do not know much about the inspection criteria. I recently had to thoroughly convince the powers that be that the section in the specs that addressed the PWHT absolutely did not apply to our schedule 40 carbon steel pipe. They were going to have me dig up a hundred or so welds and do PWHT on them, and then on the next 1000 welds. A little off topic but just an example that GC QC is not always qualified to interpret the code and specs in certain trades.

I have seen several jobs go from beginning to end and never saw an inspector. 
On most other jobs I see "drive" by inspections. I'm a CWI but speaking from more of a contractors perspective.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-26-2009 15:03
clutch,
Special inspection is mainly determined by seismic zone. As you mentioned it is more common on the west coast. It is a requirement for the owner to have performed. A lot of people are unfamiliar, or think what there doing is OK,  with the requirements ( owners, engineers, municipalities, testing labs ). Chapter 17 clearly states the inspection requirements. Most jobs just don't meet the requirements to need SI. Look at a map of seismic zones in the US and compare it to what zones require SI.
Parent - - By clutch (*) Date 01-26-2009 22:56
Hogan,
Im not sure where your getting your determination for SI's. The designs are based on seisimc zones but table 1704.3 is not zone specific. If the project is speced to IBC 03 or 06 then inspections frequencies are the same. 1704.1 gives exceptions but every job I've been on was designed by professional services. if I'm mistaken please inform me because like I said we plan to give several seminars and I want to have my ducks in a row.
Parent - By hburg rocket (*) Date 01-27-2009 01:45
Clutch,

hate to admit it, but the Magnolia State [Miss.] is practically the same if not worse as STL and N.C., etc.

hburg rocket
Parent - By BryonLewis (****) Date 01-28-2009 12:58
Are the ICC Certs of any importance to CWIs in general?  I see a few of you seem to be having difficulties in your area with complacency so I was just wondering.  Where or when would acquiring ICC SI cert come in handy?
Thanks
Parent - - By Richard Cook (**) Date 01-28-2009 18:30
I read it like you do, 1704 is for general Structural Steel it refers you to 1707.1 for seismic SI. There are more conditions to consider than just seismic, wind, snow, ground conditions etc, etc. IBC leaves it to the building officals in each jurisdiction, and no one will comply until they inforce it or you get the support of the Engineer.

Training and education is the main key, starting with the Engineers. Then the jurisdictional agencies have to be a big part of the equation in mandating and insisting on the use. We just held a Special Inspection Seminar in Utah, had four different jurisdictions involved along with Fab/Erection Companies, Inspection Agencies and only one Engineer, 53 attendees total. These Building Officials are putting together their programs for their area as we speak.
Parent - - By hburg rocket (*) Date 02-05-2009 15:46
We here in Miss are, as you suspect, way behind the rest of the USA.  I agree that training and ed is the, or at least, "a" key.  As for the Magnolia state, another big key is $$$.  The state is broke, and inspectors [and bldg officials] don't come free.

I would like some info to get me pointed in the right direction on the who-how-what [e.g. a copy of your seminar outline] to get this training/eductation ball rolling.  Sounds like I need to get the city/state in the loop somehow.  Maybe get ahold of one of the local state representatives.  Certainly the local A.S.C.E. or other engineering or even architectural groups, too.

p.s.  Miss has not adopted a state-wide bldg code;  long battle between the design and construct communities and their respective state representatives.  Only several counties and/or cities have.  So not much "teeth" is available for enforcing inspection around here.
Parent - By Richard Cook (**) Date 02-05-2009 17:58
I'm in Utah now but I'm a southern boy, family from McComb, graduated from Forest Hill High in Jackson.

I feel for you.
One other group that should be a big part of the solution is the Engineer, they have the option to designate the requirements so it's not solely a jurisdictional condition. If they specify in their documents what is to be used then it is mandated unless he comes back with a waiver. When a SI is specified you are responsible to the Owner and Engineer, subject to any jurisdictional requirements.

The SI group should have a direct link to the Owner and Engineer. To often the Engineer does not get the full details of the issue, the fabricator/erector gives him just enough to get their way. The SI should always make sure that a clear understanding of the issue is in his report, citing chapter and verse of codes, standards and specifications supporting your call. Even sketchs and pictures, or adding a note offering your contact information for clarifications. To often I here "that's not what they told me", so establishing this link may be essential for enforcement.

Other than IBC you have more standards that come into play, such as AISC and AWS. AISC has a no waiver campaign where when the engineer specifies their standards they will step in if someone tries to get a waiver in it's use.

should figure out a way to make contact to get you some resources.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 02-05-2009 18:59
hburg rocket, clutch,

Here is a link to "Model program for special inspection". It may be help answer some questions. Take a look at section II part F, this is what I was trying to convey about municipalities.

http://www.accessfayetteville.org/government/building_safety/documents/special_inspections/Model_Program_for_Special_Inspections.pdf
Parent - - By UCSB (**) Date 01-28-2009 17:48
SI is not zone specific- it is a requirement of ICC chapter 17--- if the Jurisdiction has adopted the ICC codes.
If SI is not being performed, notify the Building Official and let them know that by not enforcing the code, they are endangering the community. If that doesn't get things going, notify the State.
The ICC Steel cert is required mostly for the bolting. I have been a CWI for over 20 years and I took the ICBO (now ICC) cert several years ago- never re-newed it. All you have to do is fill out an app and take the test- if you pass, you are a "welding" inspector. I have had a lot of problems with their inspectors not knowing a darn thing about welding.
Most larger projects will require a CWI in addition to ICC cert for steel inspection.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-28-2009 19:36
Special inspections are mainly based on seismic zone, as stated previously. As the code has evolved, it has broadened to become more encompassing. A municipality will be more likely to require it if in a high seismic zone, high wind, or other unique attribute to the location and/or structure. This has nothing to do with table 1704.3, this table is listing items to be inspected not when it is required. I do not see ICC as "mostly bolting", maybe it was just new to you as it is not covered in AWS.  Filling out an app and taking a test is how you got your CWI as well, nothing different.
Parent - - By UCSB (**) Date 01-28-2009 21:38
Hogan--
At least you need to verify experience with AWS, and they will sometimes make a few calls to verify, for the CWI cert. No experience required for ICC as long as you can pass a test.
True- ICC test is based on D1.1 as well as AISC. The bolting is the main difference.
When Los Angeles County starting requiring the ICBO/ICC cert in order to maintain the County cert I told them to go pound sand- I don't care to work in LA County.

As well as SI being based on seismic zone-- I've only worked in zones 3 & 4- we've always had SI and I have not seen anything in the ICC that eleminates according to zone-- it gets more restrictive in the seismic zones.

Cheers
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 01-28-2009 22:31
Don't forget ICC also tests you on print reading skills. A definite requirement for structural inspection.
Parent - - By clutch (*) Date 01-29-2009 04:18
I know this is off the topic but since we are on the ICC cert. discussion does anyone know if an ICC certified inspector can certify welders? just curious.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 01-29-2009 14:44
It depends on municipality requirements
Parent - - By UCSB (**) Date 01-30-2009 16:11
Chapter 17 of the IBC covers special inspections- SI is required with only 3 exceptions-

1704.1 exceptions
1) Building of a minor nature
2) Building where the construction is not required to be designed by professional engineer or architect
3) Construction of Group R-3 or U structures

All of the above noted exceptions are to be approved by the Building Official in the Jurisdiction having authority.

Special Inspection for steel can be continuous or periodic based on conditions listed in 1704.3--- but it is still a requirement.

Again-- If the jurisdiction has adopted this code, special inspections must be performed.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 01-30-2009 16:53
Yes, it is dependent on the municipality
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 01-29-2009 19:36
I've been waiting for someone to mention there are 2 types of Special Inspectors noted in this thread.
Structural Steel and Bolting Special Inspector, IBC S1. This test is specific to plan reading and Bolting Inspection.
The other is Structural Welding Special Inspector, IBC S2. This test is specific to plan reading and Welding. (A CWI can grandfather into this one after passing the S1 test and paying an extra $50.00)

http://www.iccsafe.org/certification/inspector/s1.html
http://www.iccsafe.org/certification/inspector/s2.html

There are more each have a specific task.
Reinforced Concrete Special Inspector
Soils Special Inspector
Prestressed Concrete Special Inspector
Spray-applied Fireproofing Special Insp.
Structural Masonry Special Inspector 
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 01-29-2009 19:46
I recall last June there was a shoutout for those who wanted to try out a Bolting Exam beta for the AWS.  I wonder where that program is now.  If it is implemented by the AWS, will that nullify the ICC SI cert?  One can get overwelmed with all of the different certs that could be acquired.  AWS, NACE, ICC, API, ASME, etc, etc etc.
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 01-29-2009 20:12
I have not seen anything come about yet, just talk. I will be supervising an A & C next week I will post it if our paper work mentions it.
Its also not on the current endorsement application.

http://files.aws.org/certification/docs/2009_pricelist.pdf
http://files.aws.org/certification/docs/EndorsementApp.pdf

As for the ICC accepting the AWS Bolting endorsement frankly the ICC does not like the fact the CWI test can be taken on any other code besides the D1.1
As for accepting the AWS each municipality would have the agree to let the AWS bolting test stand with out the plan reading section of their test.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 01-29-2009 21:34
A & C?
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 01-30-2009 15:21
The CWI Test is in 3 parts and the CWE is in 2 parts (part C is left out)
Part A Fundamentals (basic welding questions welding symbols etc)
Part B Practical (hands on with samples and a sample code)
Part C Code Applications (i.e. D1.1 or API or _______)
Parent - - By CSmalley (*) Date 02-16-2009 21:49
I live and work in Wilmington, NC and the requirement for Special Inspections here are based on the type of occupancy, site classification, building height, etc. This is all layed out in the governing jurisdictions SI requirements (New Hanover SI Manual). The SI program in New Hanover County is nowhere near what I was familiar with in Southern California because of the lack of enforcement. The problem here and I'm sure anywhere is money. Companies like the one I work for simply cannot bid high enough to provide the level of inspection required and get the jobs. The county does not enforce these requirements they create and it wont change until they do.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 02-16-2009 22:16
SI is the responsibility of the owner. It is not something that the contractor is to pay for so the price of should not be a concern for the contractor.
Parent - - By CSmalley (*) Date 02-17-2009 00:50
I mean the Special Inspection company. We, as the SI still have to put in a competitive bid to the owner to get the job. If the other SI firms are not being held to the requirements of IBC by the Governing Building Official they just put in a low bid and go light on the inspections therefore the job is not being inspected as it  should be. There is alot of room for improvement in the whole process.
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 02-17-2009 15:17
Thanks for the clarification. That would make things tougher.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Special Inspections

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