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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / tig welding stainless
- - By sk8brbd110 (*) Date 02-02-2009 04:27
Ive been just recently learning tig welding and i havent been haveing an easy time.  I can finally get the beads consistant.  I just have one problem getting stainless to have that consistant yellow goldish color.  Ill have a great looking section 3 inches but than it will go to hell.  Have no ideas.  I have one teacher thats telling me i can only do it his walking the cup way(hes a great welder but he just cant teach for ****) and the other cant figure out what it is, so idk im lost.  Im running with 16 gauge stainless in a fillet weld with about 62 amps, 18 for gas, running at a 85 degree angle for my tungstun, 1/16 filler rod and tungstun.  I tried running slower and that helped a tad but i cant run slower than that for my travel speed.  its really starting to irratate me.  Does anybody have any ideals or tips they could share with me i would greatly appreciate it.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-02-2009 05:05
   Others can probably tell You better, but my guess is that the metal gets hot enough after that first 3 inches that it is still too hot when it is no longer under the protedction of the argon. If You can't reduce heat input, You might need a trailing gas shield to protect the weld deposit behind the torch. A bigger cup or a gas lens might help too.
Parent - - By sk8brbd110 (*) Date 02-02-2009 07:32
i have been using a lens and its not usually the first three inches it will vary from weld to weld.  But thank you
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-02-2009 08:26
Hello sk8bdr110, first off welcome to the forum. Stainless steels are susceptable to contamination/oxidation when they are unprotected above their reactive temperature. In short, if you are travelling too slowly with your weld progression and the heat input is high enough that the shielding gas is taken away from it before it has dropped below the reactive temperature that I spoke of, you will see issues with loss of the silver, gold, straw, pink, colors that will lead to the blue, black, and other less than desirable visual indications.
     There has been considerable discussion of what the various colors in stainless mean and depending in many cases who you are speaking with, their opinions will vary widely as to what point there has been a compromise in mechanical and service integrity.
     Personally I prefer to have the colors that are present before you reach the blue hues, yet that isn't necessarily always possible. A few tips that I will give might go like this: use an electrode extension that will allow you to keep the point of the tungsten as close to the actual weld puddle as possible without actually touching it, if you are using a gas lens, use flow rates that are slightly greater than those suggested for standard cups (try not to get too radical with your flow rates as an excess can cause turbulence that can actually induce atmosphere into the weld zone), you may want to lay back the travel angle slightly more than you have been, the more directly you point it into the joint the more you might concentrate the heat and penetration (this can be used to your advantage in some situations), sometimes more amperage and an increase in travel speed is actually better than less amperage and a slower travel speed (this may reduce the HAZ and allow for a more rapid cooling of the weld bead which can also lead to the color that you were hoping to maintain), using heat-sinks on the backside of a weld joint will also help with controlling distortion and overheating, thus helping with finished bead colors if you are trying to keep the colors that you spoke of. Experimentation and practice will likely lead you to determining what it will take for you to be satisfied with your end results. Try only changing one thing at a time and taking note of the results and don't rush into making changes after only trying something once or twice, give it a chance before trying something else. You mentioned that one of your instructors wanted you to use what might be called the "lay wire" technique, there is nothing wrong with that advice, at the same time it is not the only game in town either so try it right along with the other methods that you will likely be exposed to through other experienced welders, instructional tapes, or other sources of input. Personally I like the "lay wire" technique for pipe or open root applications and a "dab" technique for a lot of the other applications. Just a little bit for you to think about. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By spgtti (**) Date 02-03-2009 00:07
Try upping the gas flow to around 25 and weld hotter and faster. The more you sit on stainless and soak it with heat the closer you'll get to burning it black.
Parent - - By cmays (***) Date 02-03-2009 04:19 Edited 02-03-2009 04:28
Keep the rod under the gas umbrela too. Your filler metal to amps ratio will determine your travel speed. Example: At the amperage youre running you have very little filler metal available to chill the puddle so you have to haul a#$%! to get good color.Keep in mind though If youre not comfortable running fast you can easily linger too long with lower amperage and build up too much ambiant heat. This will blacken your base metal too.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-03-2009 10:22
sk8brbd110    basically you are outrunning your gas....heat combination.  Your probably just balancing on a fine line of travel speed, deposit amount, heat combination.  Refer to Aevald's post as it says all that needs to be said I believe.  Sometimes on thin stainless running a trailer can be a huge benefit.

Great post Allen!
Tommy
Parent - By pipehog (**) Date 02-03-2009 19:10
Roll your cup ,sometimes when walking the cup some people raise the tungsten when going side to side .This balls your filler wire and removes sheilding gas.When you learn to roll your cup your will go faster and you will not burn the pipe up . Also use a large cup with gas lens on stainless . On scd.10 i use a number large #12 with gas lens .
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-03-2009 19:13
They have given a lot of good advice, the majority of my welding career has been doing stainless steel sheet metal and structural.

My vote goes for speeding up slightly, or washing the bead out to the toes more.

from a strictly technical note, everyone wants the "pretty gold colours" or rainbow, but the most desireable colour is when it's pure silver like the base metal.
Parent - - By rick harnish (***) Date 02-03-2009 23:47
Hello Metarinka, I have been told the same about silver being perfect. It has been awhile, ( have not walked a cup in over a year), but I can honestly slick out a stainless cap. I mean snakeskin, cant tell stops and starts, pure gold, nice and uniform,its dang slick. I witnessed about two inches of silver come off my tungsten once or twice on accident. How does one make that happen on a consistent basis? Would just be sweet to get that right. Again I mention it would probably take some time right now to get a nice shade of grey, but I havent forgotten what to do. Just gotta play some!
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-05-2009 18:51
well in order to get a silver or base metal colour the weld has to cool down completely before it leaves the shielding gas. usually this is not 100% possible at welding parameters that make nice welds.

Stainless cools slow so if you get a nice amount of heat to melt things in and get good wetting chances are the weld will be too hot when exiting the shielding and it will produce the pretty colours. Not a practical solution... not acceptable for most welding work, but it is possible to drag a bead which helps point the gas backwards  to shield the weld longer.

Fast and "relatively" cold with a small bead technique wise is what you want, although that's probably not in the best interest of production times. When fusing 18-22Ga I could consistently get a pure silver colour because the heat input was so low and travel speed was relatively fast. However if I'm putting in the root pass on stainless pipe you couldn't use such low settings and still get adequate penetration and fusing.

More pratically a trailing shield is the way to go to still get good beads and good amount of deposition if you're doing thicker work. Depending on the code requirements various levels of oxidation are okay and a light straw colour is acceptable for general work. Somehow over the years a lot of welders, weld supervisors and welding inspectors have got the notion that "straw" or even the rainbow effect is more desireable than just silver alone.

Finally it should be noted that any colour comes from chromium oxidiation and that it reduces the corrosion resistance of the weld. It  MUST be removed if you want to regain the corrosion resistance of the metal.
Parent - - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 02-07-2009 02:16
I am running into this on the jobsite I am on.  They want the color left on because if it is brushed they say that you burned it.  This is very difficult for me and my fitter who is also a welder.  I have started seeing rust on some of the welds that I have left the color on.  This is very iritating.
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-07-2009 06:33
It's unfortunate when uninformed managers make decisions like that that have consequences down the line.  It should be pointed out that stainless steel welds NEED to be cleaned and passivated post welding. IF they want to inspect before you brush that's fine, but it's VERY important On both the cover and any passes inbetween. IF I can find em I have a couple articles with some good explinations  and pictures on just why you need to remove heat tint. Here's one but it's wordy http://www.thefabricator.com/TubePipeProduction/TubePipeProduction_Article.cfm?ID=888

I've always been curious how the whole myth of the heat tint colors being a good thing came about and why it's so pervasive.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-07-2009 11:50
"They want the color left on because if it is brushed they say that you burned it. I have started seeing rust on some of the welds that I have left the color on.  This is very iritating.
JeremyW83,"

I have asked (politely) down through the chain of command "if it is of no hindrence, I would like to see the welds (on S/S) for color". 

If you are not blowing any NDT (other than this QC GOD's self imposed VT policy) ie x-ray, pt, vt, etc...hmmm. Is it stated anywhere in the Specs that your welds must be left in the "as welded condition/ no clean-up", prior to inspection? If your job is on the line for no other reason than brushing the completed welds...Respectfully approach your foreman/supervisor for the documentation that states " no clean-up"! If so, this would be a mandatory "HOLD POINT", clearly stated in the procedure, AND woah, you better stop brushing them beads...
As far as the rust... RU maintaining proper procedure with carbon free contact with your work?
Ok?, I'm trying to be gentle here!

Now, as MetarinKa said..."It's unfortunate when uninformed managers make decisions like that that have consequences down the line."...Rarely is it a manager, but a "rogue (unethical) inspector"...had to deal with a many of them!

..."IF they want to inspect before you brush that's fine, but it's VERY important On both the cover and any passes inbetween. "

ABSOLUTELY. This is called "in process". BTW it is also mentioned by the AWS that it is not the inspector's duty to impede production unnecessarily. That is ETHICS!
Post weld passivation, PWHT, NDT etc. are all issues "beyond your pay grade" as they say. Other than informing those up the food chain, you are done with your end of the process (done welding boss, what's next?)

I feel your pain.

Wish you well and,
Best of luck in your difficult situation
Parent - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 02-07-2009 15:58
Super Flux I have told the Project Superintendent that I am used to brushing every single SS or exotic period.  My fitter is the same way.  My boss's response was that if I have good color then there is no need to brush them.  On maintaining a carbon free enviroment I do it as well as I can seeing as we work in a very small fab area with SS on one side and CS on the other seperated only by a couple of weld curtains that so not go all the way to the roof.  I am also very particular about who uses my grinder and if they want to barrow it I take my wheels off and tell em to get a new one for themselves.  I do not loan out my brushes or files to people working on CS.  What is out of my hands on controling the carbon contamination is the supplier.  The pipe consistently comes in not wrapped in plastic; has serious surface rust issues(I will try and take some pics).  They will carry it on the truck rack strapped all together with a bunch of carbon steel and then they will not seperate it out after unloading. 

This is a chemical plant that I am working in and the inspector does not come down on a regular basis to check out the welds that we have made that week.  He waits until Friday which is our day off.  This SS pipe is also Sch. 10 so that has been a learning curve I have had to catch up on again since I haven't done Sch 10 in awhile. I am accustomed to Sch 80 or better.  They only do a visual inspection on this jobsite.  The test was a Sch 80 2" GTAW all the way.  When I go to doing the cap I asked the inspector how many beads I could have and he said he prefered one.  I put on two anyways and it bent fine.  I am used to the single bead cap requirement but that is on a Sch 10 test.

Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 02-07-2009 07:45
Hello Jeremy, as Metarinka said, stainless needs to have the process completed when the welding is done. If you go to the search function of the forum and enter topics such as "stainless steel passivation", " colors of stainless steel welds", "cleaning of stainless steel welds", "proper preparation and completion of stainless steel welds", or other similar headings you will likely find a myriad of information that will help to understand and convey the reasons for completing the cleaning and finish of stainless welds. These items might include: brushing, passivating, pickling, and other similar terms. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 02-03-2009 19:18
keep your filler rod in the puddle constantly only pulling it out about a 1/16" every now and again to make sure your getting penetration to the root of the fillet.  When you pull the rod out to far past the shielding it oxidizes becuase it is glowing orange when you pull it out of the shielding.  When you then go and put it back in the pudle, it takes away that sweet color.  I won't get into details on why it does, but it does. ;-)
Parent - By pipehog (**) Date 02-04-2009 01:48
When i was learning to well stainless everyone was telling me to go slow AND COLD .WELL I TRIED WITH NO SUCESS . I HAD TO LEARN THAT EVERYONE WELDS DIFFERENT . I LIKE TO WELD FAST. YOU MUST JUST DO WHAT YOU ARE BEST AT,NOT WHAT SOMEONE TELLS YOU . EVERYONE IS NOT THE SAME . TAKE EVERYONE ADVICE BUT KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND YOU WILL GET IT.
Parent - - By sk8brbd110 (*) Date 02-04-2009 05:30
I can get the shiney silver color but i was told thats no good i want the straw.  And thanks alot guys i really appreciate the input this has been bugging me for a while now.
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 02-04-2009 13:34
If you can get the shiny silver color, the color of the stainless, then that is the best you can get.  Straw color is the next best to completely silver or stainless color.
Parent - - By SWP (**) Date 02-05-2009 14:11
There is a reference photograph published in AWS D18.2:1999 that shows the range of weld discoloration as a function of oxygen content in the internal argon purge gas of SS tubing.  This data shows that a straw (golden) color begins to develop at about 50 ppm O2.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-05-2009 18:35
Ask and you shall recieve
A picture of surface oxidation
and a picture of root oxidation
Parent - - By mightymoe (**) Date 02-05-2009 22:11
wire brush does the job for me
Parent - - By pipehog (**) Date 02-06-2009 01:52
pics
Parent - - By pipehog (**) Date 02-06-2009 01:58
not my welds looks a little hot to me or a little slow
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 02-06-2009 05:12
my guess is that the welder didn't keep mind of their interpass temp, because stainless is sucha bad thermal conductor the heat sits there and builds up.  When you get to the cover pass it will weld in real nice because everything is preheated to a decent level but the welds will oxidize because they're too hot.

Really what needs to happen is that the welds need to be wire brushed or ground inbetween passes and passivated on completion if corrosion resistance is an issue. It's very impractical to get a silver colour and produce welds at a reasonable rate or expense.
Parent - - By mightymoe (**) Date 02-06-2009 22:08 Edited 02-06-2009 22:13
nice pics.
I work in a fab shop and certain  jobs "don't have an interpass temp", just weld it out. I'll work on two or three welds at a time so I can alternate and let them cool a little. Most guys don't brush their welds because they don't have to. I do, it just looks better.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-07-2009 10:00 Edited 02-07-2009 10:26
Being an "old school" type that has been doing this sorta thing for many years (since 1971), I'm inclined to lean towards the minimal clean-up! Having welded many a mille of linear bead, I may not know all the cheats, but I've used enough of them to know, that clean-up is the "welder's edge" to schmooze the Inspector.
I've welded on everything from corral panels to seismic restraints on the SCRAM Discharge of Nuclear Power Plants (BTW neither of them have melted down....yet....)
That being confessed...when it comes to high dollar, well documented exotic ferrous based alloys (ie PMI, RT, PT, Hartford, Lloyds of London, etc.) on certain systems fabricated for Critical Service. I WANT to see the welds as pristine/virginal as possible.
I make it a point to be "in the trenches" and looking over your shoulder... when you least expect it... and gone...never knew I was there...
Now! S/S colors...silver is all but impossible to produce on a consistent basis unless COST is not a factor (my life's dream to have an un-contested government bid job!!!! WOOF!!!!Hello Haliburton!!! I'll  love you long time LBJ and Dick Chenney)
Silver...ultimate
Gold ...XLNT
Pink....Highly desireable
Blues?...time to take a peek see
Other than that...I'm all over you like maggots on road kill in the August sun!!!!With stainless, you want to keep it cool. It needs to pass through the upper transformation range as quickly as possible. That is the trick to "keeping the colour".

I welcome any discourse to the contrary.

If you're getting "rust" on the completed welds in less than 24 hrs, there are some severe environmental / contamination issues that need to be addressed...assuming that you are maintaining a carbon free welding environment...? You would not believe some of the "Mega Oil Company's" global practices I've had to maintain...ie. storage of S/S pipe/material no less than 12" above ground, even if wrapped in plastic!!!

OK, it's not a perfect world... BUT... We all know when we're on the critical job.....RIGHT?

Yeah, you may be paranoid...but that don't mean someone ain't watchin............

In all fairness, to us under the hood. When we are doing it right, by the BOOK! It is the bidder's/salesman's fault!!!

venting with vengence
Parent - By JeremyW83 (***) Date 02-07-2009 16:01
SuperFlux,

I consistently get gold and pink but when I do get silver it often has flexks of blue in it. 
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / tig welding stainless

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