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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / e7018 vertical bead/fillet
- - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-07-2009 02:44
Today, I was doing some vertical with the 7018s and couldn't hold an arc, or it was too strong. I kept adjusting the voltage of my machine majorly, and finely, but nothing really helped. I just couldn't get a stable arc.

My metal was clean (mild steel, about 1/4" thick), I had everything setup right, and it wasn't me. I was doing fine tacking with the mig welder, and 6010 electrodes worked fine for me. Do you have any ideas on what might have been wrong?

On a side note: what is the proper motion for 7018 vertical? I have been doing a large starter pool, then climbing a ladder of pools switching sides each pool, like a zipper.
Parent - - By trukfan Date 02-07-2009 03:03
Did you do any grinding? Sometimes if you do alot of grinding or wire wheeling, or if your ground at the machine is bad, not necessarily at the clamp, you can get arc blow. That's what it sounds like to me. Arc moving all over the place, nothing you do making it better. Was this in a weld lab setting? When I was was in school, we had this problem alot. Switch it to AC for a pass or 2, and it should clear up.
Parent - - By flamin (**) Date 02-07-2009 16:55
Fritz, occasionally I have run accross similar problems. Most of the time it was old electrods that was the cause. Are you keeping the 7018 in an oven? If not the moisture content in the flux coating could be affecting it. Just a thought.

Jason
Parent - - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-08-2009 17:03
They are usually used within an hour of being out of our oven. I think they are being kept at about 300*. I am doing this at school. We have booths and a grate-like table inside that I hook my clamp to, maybe I'll bring the grinder in there and clean up where I put my clamp on.

I doubt it was the electrodes, because I had some ones that never made it back into the oven, and fresh ones from the oven... 5 minutes to 24 hours out of the oven and same problem. If I have the problem on Monday I will switch to AC for a few passes.
Parent - By OBrien (***) Date 02-08-2009 23:56
Had this problem beat me down mentally for about a year and a half through school tried everything and couldnt make it go away.  I thought it had something to do with being in a booth and the placement of the ground and was told that in the feild using a common ground the magnetic force causing this would go away.  Sorry it don't.  I went back to practice for a 3g plate test having not done anything but pipe for quite some time and it clicked on why it happened and figured out how to fix and prevent it.  I watched my angle very closly.  When my rod was 90* off the plate with a REALLY tight arc I could run bead after bead and not have a problem but as soon as I started to long arc or got up to the plate and let my wrist move and angle to an ever so slight push it came back. 

Now how to fix it.  As soon as it starts break the arc clean it up with a grinder and just restart.  I have been told rolling the rod, changing angles, and "driver rate in to it" and it never worked for me.  It takes a little while to take a grinder and clean it up but it takes a hell of a lot longer to cut out and do it again.  I'm not saying that this will fix all your problems but it did a world of good for me.  The secret to welding is in your hood, if you spend enough time in there you will find it.
Parent - - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-09-2009 20:42
Well, once we get some metal in I will have to try this. We are completely out of fresh metal and I don't even try to make a proper weld on scraps.
Parent - - By OBrien (***) Date 02-09-2009 21:31
If you can make proper welds on a peice of metal it don't matter if it is scrap just as long as it is clean.
Parent - - By Johnyutah (**) Date 02-10-2009 01:59
Me I would practice on every piece of scrap I could run a bead on your paying for school, you don't know enough to even get in trouble, and your to proud to weld on scrap. I know here it comes let johny have it seriously where do you guys get off being so cocky for all you know you might get a job welding on junk iron all day god knows I have. I wish all of the students the best of luck and hope they find good jobs when they finish but I think a lot of you need a reality check. Most the junk iron welders I know could back up to your lab roll out and put your instructor to shame right out of the scrap bin with nothing but there truck and a file.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 02-10-2009 07:51
Hello Johnyutah, I suppose I'll yank your chain just a bit (I really am funnin' ya though). I really don't know of too many schools that can afford to run on brand new metal, maybe some of the privates, but even then I don't know that I would believe that either. At our school the local shops and industries are very generous with their donations of metal, sometimes we get fairly new scrap, other times we get the take-outs from a plant modification or re-vamp. In either case, the students will weld on what we have to work with. I totally agree with your take on welding on the junk iron right along with some of the new stuff. You aren't going to have the choice very often when you get out there in the working world.
     As to any of the students out there who are reading parts of this thread: be prepared to break out the torch, plasma, and carbon arc, cut pieces and parts to make your various welds with and get used to working with the cruddy stuff as well as the new. Take the time to make welds on new metal without doing any prep.(grinding, descaling, etc.) and then make some that you have meticulously cleaned and prepped. Take note of the differences. Do the same with metals that are being referred to as "junk iron", pay close attention to the differences that you see with the arc, puddle, slag, bead profiles, undercut, and any other inconsistencies that you notice. If you get the chance, make a weld and then take it out with the carbon arc. After you have removed it weld it back up without doing any grinding or clean-up, then do it again, only this time take the time to do some grinding to get rid of any extra slag or oxidation on the gouged faces. Weld this up and make note of the differences.
     The various types, grades, and thicknesses of metals all have their own idiosyncrasies and will display slightly different traits when you weld them. Thick plate and beams of substantial weight will generally have a thick layer of mill scale and will impede proper fusion at the toes of welds, they generally require a slight bit of grinding and if they are over 1" in thickness might also require a preheat. Rectangular and square tubing will react differently when being welded due to their metallurgical make-up, they are generally cold-worked to attain their shape and as such they react differently to an arc compared to beams, channels, and other structurals. If you really wish to see these differences find a piece of 3/8" wall A500 rectangular tubing, 3/8" A-36 plate, and an A36 structural such as a channel, beam, or angle with a 3/8" thickness, try to use pieces that are in a similar condition with regard to rust and surface condition. Now set each one of these up and run a few vertical stringers on them. I believe you will come to find out that they react slightly differently from one another. Hey Johny, I'll be waiting to see the others come after you! Me, I'm not worried, I can generally hold my own. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Johnyutah (**) Date 02-10-2009 14:55
That is exactly right Allen and explained with much more patience thank you. The real world will be nothing like your lab unless you make it so if you only work the easy to clean and rust free smooth metal your only cheating yourself. For example Fritz we are in the process of putting new sides on a scrap trailer in our shop the upper is new the lower is junk iron the shop guys are fighting it every step. But since it's slow right now we let the rig welders on to help there isn't even a comparison the rig welders do twice the work the shop guys do. And the reason isn't because there not trying hard it's just that the field guys know how to deal with it. Junk iron is a common part of welding you need to quit avoiding work to make your schooling easier. And Fritz if I think your being a crybaby and that you think your something your not thats my opinion if you take it to heart that's your mistake. But I can promise you one thing there are a lot of guys out there that get called whining welders for a reason you need to stop with the blame it on the machine blame it on the steel bull**** put your head down and figure it out the reason you struggle is the same reason your there you don't know how.
Parent - - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-10-2009 11:51
I take used metal, and put those pieces together, but I don't feel like cleaning up 500 pieces of rusty jagged edge odd thickness BULLS---.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 02-10-2009 21:48
but I don't feel like cleaning up 500 pieces of rusty jagged edge odd thickness BULLS---.
 
I'm mnot saying anything bad about you at all but in the field the attitude you have right now will not fly in the field. Inthe field you dont get your choice of new or old material you get what they give youi and you make it work and make it look good as new why because this is what your employer expects be it the farmer down the road on hia 1940 poppin jonny tractor or his brand new shiney gate entrance you put up yesterday so you need to get in all the practice you can on more of the old junk than the new stuff. And always remember you're in school and they are paying for the rods wire oxygen and actelyne so roll with it weld and cut what ever you can get your hands on and remember practice makes perfect
Parent - - By Fredspoppy (**) Date 02-10-2009 13:46
Fritz,
A real basic question here.  How are you "adjusting the voltage of my machine"?  SMAW is run using a CC (constant current) power supply and the only "adjustment" available on the machine is welding current.  The voltage (arc length) is determined by how short or long of a welding arc you maintain (distance of the end of the electrode to the workpiece).  You talk about doing fine, tacking with the mig welder.  Are you using the same machine for the tacking and the welding with 7018?
Parent - - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-10-2009 20:57
No, I go to another machine to tack. Our mig welders are controlled by a single knob which does feed speed and current. On the electrode machines (some are capable of tig, but we only use them for arc because we have new tig machines) there is a singe knob for your current.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-10-2009 22:50
Gotta say I side with Rafter and ol Jonny Utah.

Shearing, grinding and making ugly metal fit up nice is what craftsmanship is all about.  Doing those unplesant chores will teach you how to master the cutting torch, carbon arc, Ironworker/Metal muncher, needle scaler, grinders and prolly a half dozen other tools I can't think of at the moment.

Secondly... Are you being instructed to tack your SMAW practice pieces with Mig?   If not you should prolly think about learning how to tack your SMAW projects with stick rod...  You won't have a GMAW power supply handy out in the field when it comes time to tack stuff together.   Again, placing good tacks is a part of learning to be a craftsman... And trust me, placing good tacks on a complex weldment is a cross between science and art. 

These little things are what seperate a trigger man from a craftsman fabricator.

So now you have a new and better perspective... Dive into the scrap metal bin and think of it as a fun adventure... What can I make out of this?????  Can I get a fitup that I can weld out of positon and is resistant to arc blow???  If you do this you will look even better when the clean sheared stuff finally arrives.
Parent - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 02-11-2009 01:34
I can tack with stick, but usually I walk over the gmaw/mig machine and bust out a whole load of tacks cleanly and easily. I used to tack with stick before I started welding by the mig machines (booths with overhead bars are over there).

We have the metal tart-kart and I take from there, usual reasons I don't is because I can't find pieces that will fit together nice due to morning shop (I have afternoon, freshman/seniors, morning is sophomore/junior) using yesterday's scraps. The ragged pieces that will take me 20 minutes to clean up make good friends with the oxyfuel cutters. Sadly today the teacher was sick and we couldn't weld.
Parent - - By Johnyutah (**) Date 02-11-2009 01:46
Fritz I have some pics to show you what I am talking about this is the type of work that we do a lot of at our shop modify equiptment. This is a scrap trailer that we cut in half and extended and added four feet to the top. This type of work pays well and is typically time and materials so lots of OT for everyone and it takes a whole different set of skills to work on this than new steel.
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Parent - By Sberry (***) Date 10-15-2010 01:44
I think he asked for vert pics on a dirty old plate that went thru a fire?
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- - By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 10-15-2010 13:20
Wow it's funny how easy this is now.

Doing fixed position mild steel pipe now. Having trouble on the 9 to 6 o' clock with my root pass. Using 1/8" 6010 for root, 3/32" 7018 hot, and 1/8" 7018 for the cap. Usually running 75-90 amps for the root, 75-85 amps for the hot pass, and 90-110 amps on the cover.

Lacking penetration severely, when I turn the amps up it blows through and piles up, will only hold a keyhole at lower amps...

The other students think I'm crazy because I'll weld sitting on the floor for the overhead portions. Haha!
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-16-2010 22:42
How thick is your land on the pipe? What size wall thickness is the pipe? Gap between the pipe? Remember running it hotter you'll need to close up the gap a bit more. Set the machine where you like it, where it feels good to you then adjust your land, gap to work with it. I did some 2-1/2" and 3" here a month or so ago, used 1/8 6010 for root, had to beef up my land a bit cause I had a bit of a time running the first weld on the job(doing a bunch of downhand stuff before that). Then I did hot/ fill passes with 3/32 7018. Set the machine at one temp and blow and go. When you get out towards your cap some will turn down the machine for cap pass, some don't....me it depends on how I feel that day. If you don't turn it down you'll have to move along quickly, the work piece is pretty hot as you know so going slow is gonna look like a bad batch of mama's bisquits. Turn machine down and you can slow down. Don't know if this helps, keep on working at it, lots of hood time....lots of hood time

Shawn
- By Fritz T Katt (**) Date 10-18-2010 01:59
Usually 4 to 12"+ sch 40 or 60. Whatever is laying around.

3/32" land on an approximate 60* bevel. Usually hand ground unless machined pieces are found. 3/32-1/8" root opening.

We (the welding shop) got THREE brand new Miller synchowave 350's... with water-coolers! The new torch parts are 1/2 the size of the old ones. Even came with Cerriated tungstens...

The next pipe I prepare is going to be done with TIG. Last year I did some pipe with TIG and the results were rather good, although I only did 3g rolled.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / e7018 vertical bead/fillet

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