API 650 vs AWS QCI certified API 1104

Date 02-11-2009 16:29

There is no real overlap that I am aware of. I think it would come down to the code and job requirements. Are you referring to an API 653 vs CWI? A 653 involves a little more engineering, the CWI is mainly welding.

By 2002685 (*)

Date 02-11-2009 18:13

yes, sorry API 653(I should know better as I am API 510 myself).

Anyways that helps a bit, I am just unfamiliar with The AWS and the different code disiplines that they can certify to, so if they can certify to API codes than I just figured that they can do some of the same work as an API 653 inspector for tanks.

thanks
hope to hear more on this

cody

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-11-2009 21:06

There is no code requirement to have a API 653 inspector inspect welding on tanks. Some 653 inspectors know as much about welding as some CWI's know about tanks.
The responsibilities of a 653 is to determine the condition of a AST and to evaluate the tank for continued operation. The 653 can oversee the repairs to a AST, but the responsibility for doing the repairs to code falls to the repair organization (contractor).
Many companies are using 653 inspectors to oversee the repairs, but this is not a requirement of 653, 510 or 570.
And they do not require a CWI for the welding inspections either.
BABRT's

By Joey

Date 02-13-2009 15:13

BABRT's

Sorry! I'm confused on your statement "There is no code requirement to have a API 653 inspector inspect welding on tanks"

As I understand, visual inspection on repair by welding can be subdivided into three divisions;

1.Visual examination prior to welding - many items must be reviewed and checked prior to welding eg. drawings, specifications, procedures, welder qualifications, materials, low hydrogen electrodes etc
2.Visual inspection during welding
3.Visual inspection after welding on completed welds

If API 653 inspector is not required to inspect welding as per the above item 1, then how he/she can certify that the tank has been repaired in accordance with the API 653 requirements.

Furthermore: Clause 6.4.1.2 states" All tanks shall have a formal internal inspection conducted at the intervals defined by 6.4.2 or 6.4.3. The Authorized Inspector who is responsible for evaluation of a tank must conduct a visual inspection and assure the quality and completeness of the NDE results.

Does it means weldments are not included in visual inspection?

Regards
Joey

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-13-2009 16:43

Inspection of the welds falls under the responsibility of the repair organization (contractor). This does not prevent the owner from having a inspector look at the welds.

The three divisions you list fall to the repair organization. The repair organization is to have welding procedures and qualified welders doing the work. The QC responsibility for this falls to the contractor. No where is 510, 570 or 653 are the inspections for fit up, weld spacing, welding sequence, testing etc required to be done by the Authorized Inspector. IT is the authorized inspectors responsibility to see these test are done properly, with qualified personnel and with qualified procedures.

If I am looking at a floor patch in the critical zone, does 653 require me to be sure I am there every step of the process? No That is the repair organizations responsibility. The RO is to have qualified weldors install the patch as per 653. They are the ones who are to have the first and last pass inspected. The RO is the one who is to have the documentation that proves the work was done in accordance to 653. And the owner having a 653 inspector on side does not take this QC responsibility off the RO back.

Again, the owner may want a 653 to do all this. And doing just that has made me a nice living over the years. Just the day in day out inspection responsibilities (QC) fall to the RO, not the owner. The owner has a QA responsibility to see the work and NDE are done.
BABRT's

By Joey

Date 02-13-2009 18:27

Inspection of the welds also falls under the responsibility of Authorized Inspector not only contractor because I still believe that Welding inspection starts from review of documents such as WPS, PQR, welder certificates etc.....aside from your physical inspection of welds.

Joey

By hogan

Date 02-13-2009 19:32

Be careful telling your AI what there job duties are.

By Joey

Date 02-14-2009 00:03

Im aware on that, But please correct me if my statement is wrong. thanks

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-14-2009 20:03

Joey,

It depends on what type of inspection the AI is doing. If you are inspecting the tank as part of a routine out of service inspection, this may be done by the AI or delegated to someone else. All that is required is for the welds to be inspected.
If the inspection is done as part of a post repair inspection, again the process of welding may be delegated to someone else other than the AI.
However, if the AI is the project inspector and is required by the owner to do all or oversee the inspections, then yes the AI will look at the welds. As a project inspector I do not shoot or interpret the radiographs, but I do qualify the film.
Does that mean I am not inspecting the welds?
Some projects I have worked on the RO had their on QC process. All I do in that case is oversee the inspections and do QA as I see fit. This can become a contractual issue on hard dollar projects. As the owners representative I have the right to access and inspect all aspects of the project. I have the right to review all WPS, PQR and WPQ papers.
If you are wanting to know if the AI HAS to look at all aspects of the welding, then the short answer to that is no.
All the AI is required to do is be sure the inspections are done.
If the welds are to be vacuum box tested, then they have to be tested. All welds have to be visually inspected. If it is the contractors responsibility to do that, then it is the AI's job to be sure it is done. This may be actually watching the inspections being done or reviewing documentation that says it has been done.

By Joey

Date 02-15-2009 13:53

BABRT's

Much clearer to me now. Hence, its not totally true the statement of "There is no code requirement to have a API 653 inspector inspect welding on tanks"

Regards
Joey

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-18-2009 01:21 Edited 07-28-2009 23:12

By Joey

Date 02-19-2009 09:38

BABRT's,

I just renew my 653... quiz on line (after 6yrs)
next year is my 510 which is due for renewal also quiz on line.

have to read read and non stop reading.....

thanks
Joey

fyi - my CAWI cert is a bluff....LOL

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-13-2009 21:05

Just curious, in what form does having a CAWI help in QC supervision since it limits your abilities to inspect welds?

By Joey

Date 02-14-2009 00:01

this question should be asked to the employer

By Joey

Date 02-14-2009 00:32

In addition, is it mandatory for me to declare that i have my CSWIP 3.1 certificate?
Honestly, I love my CAWI very much. Please give support to CAWI qualificaton..I know many of them are reading this forum.

By hvymax

Date 02-14-2009 17:11

The CAWI's role is to shoehorn himself into the places the CWI doesnt want to and take pictures and report to the CWI.It's a job for the bosses son who failed the CWI test so he had to hire you.

By Joey

Date 02-15-2009 14:06

Hello Kid, Do your parents know you're in this forum? Better meet your friends outside and play your balls or ride a bicycle until you get tired.

Sorry to the rest, I dont want to be rude, but the reply given by this kid may provokes other CAWI.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-15-2009 15:52

[deleted]

By Ariel D C (**)

Date 02-16-2009 14:29

Please read API 653 Addendum 2 Nov 2005

APPENDIX F--NDE REQUIREMENTS SUMMARY

F.2 Visual Examination

F.2.1 Visual examinations are required for:

a. Cavities from removal of repads (see API Std 653,
12.1.2.2).

b. Completed welds of stress-relieved assemblies after stress
relief but before hydrostatic testing (see API Std 653,
12.1.2.4).

c. All fillet welds and completed repairs of fillet welds (see
API Std 650, 5.3.2.2 and API Std 653, 12.1.3.3).

d. Completed welds of new permanent attachments and areas
of removed temporary attachments (see API Std 653,
12.1.4.2).

e. New shell plate-to-shell plate welds (see API Std 653,
12.1.5).

f. Tack welds left in place (see API Std 650, 5.2.1.8).
g. Bottom plate and all welds, including the weld attaching a
patch plate to the bottom, for new bottom plates (see API Std
653, 12.1.7.1).

h. Root and final weld pass of patch plate to bottom in the
critical zone (see API Std 653, 12.1.7.2).
i. Areas of a bottom plate repaired by welding (See API Std
653, 12.1.7.3).

j. Areas of a shell plate to be repaired by welding (See API
Std 653, 12.1.8).
k. Cavities from removal of weld defects (see API Std 653,
12.1.3.1).

l. Annular plate butt-welds root pass and final pass (see API
Std 653, 12.3.2.3.1b).
m. Repaired areas of the shell-to-bottom weld (see API Std
653, 12.3.2.4.2).

F.2.2 The examination acceptance standard is API Std 650,
6.5.

F.2.3 There are no requirements for examiner qualifications.

F.2.4 There are no procedure requirements.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 02-18-2009 01:15

Brain fart on my part. It was a long weekend.
BABRT's

By hogan

Date 02-16-2009 15:15

As far as the CAWI goes, I would not be proud of having it. It demonstrates that you failed the CWI. I would suggest that you do a search for CAWI, there a several good thread on this topic. You can tell everyone you see that you have a CSWIP 3.1, it's not mandatory. If it makes you feel better than go for it. If you tell people you have your CAWI, your telling them you failed the CWI and got lucky enough to attain the status of CAWI. I would think more of an inspector that said nothing vs claiming a CAWI.

By Joey

Date 02-17-2009 02:28

I'm not proud but I'm satisfied to have the CAWI. I have many friends in AST industries that have only CAWI certificates, which their employers or clients recognized as minimum requirement for welding inspector.

Ironically, because of one bloody mistake in open code book, I failed to get a CWI but I have no regrets....in a positive side, it helps me to be humble and to feel that I'm not better than others. I have no plan to upgrade and will keep this CAWI forever. Fyi, before I take the CWI exam, I already had my CSWIP and APIs. By having CSWIP 3.1, I don't need to get direct supervision from CWI. To abolish the CAWI certificate will not make me feel good. It also not nice to look down on CAWI people

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-17-2009 04:39

"I have no plan to upgrade and will keep this CAWI forever. "

Apparently you haven't read much on your certs. A CAWI is only good for 3 years max in a lifetime!

By Joey

Date 02-17-2009 05:01

My friend, don't be cocky, I'm still young compare to your age of 46. Do you have a problem for me to keep my CAWI certificate forever? Do I need to return this certificate to AWS after your 3years lifetime? It seems that you enjoying very much your Yr 2007 CWI. What else do you have aside from CWI?

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-17-2009 06:25

who's getting Cocky, if you read "QC1:2007 Standard for AWS Certification of Welding Inspectors" you would have read "A Certified Associate Welding Inspector (CAWI) will no longer be able to renew or recertify at the CAWI level. CAWIs must retest and score at the certified welding inspector's cutoff of 72% to retain any certification."

Those are not my rules, Its not my problem, It will be your problem when you go to renew. because It won't happen. Just forget the heads up I gave you and you'll soon find out on your own.
Yes I do enjoy my CWI, I PASSED THE EXAMS.
And I also have 30 years exp. in Fitting, Welding, Supervising, Dimensional Inspection, Safety Advisor, Machine operator, and just about everything else that goes with the trades, and it has kept me gainfully employed for 30 years with above average paychecks and very few layoffs(2 that I can remember). so yes, Life is good and I enjoy it.

By Joey

Date 02-17-2009 10:55 Edited 02-17-2009 11:05

Dont worry! I have no intention to renew it. I just want to keep the CAWI cert forever whether it's a current or expired. Why should I renew it? I tried and failed the AWS-CWI, so another option is to aim for CSWIP 3.2 instead.

Enjoy yourself and may you have more excellent paychecks to come. I would advise you to write more tactfully in the future.

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 02-17-2009 11:35

Another option could be to bridge your CSWIP 3.1 to AWS CWI

3.2

By Joey

Date 02-18-2009 05:34

Thanks!! you're correct.

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 02-18-2009 17:07

3.2 inspector

Thank you for pointing out the loophole in the reciprocity agreement to "Joey" and me..

I happen to be one of those people who DOES look "LOOK DOWN" on those who fail to get a passing grade on the CWI exam and get the "Booby Prize" instead.

I will bring a proposal to the Certification Committee that no person who has a current CAWI Certificate or who has held a CAWI certificate in the past (for failure to achieve a passing grade, but who has never subsequently achieved a passing grade), can be eligible for a reciprocity certification from the AWS.

Joe Kane

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-18-2009 18:04

I was waiting for that from you Joe. :)

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 02-19-2009 07:04

Joseph,

You made it sound negative, which it - in my opinion - is not.
In order to go from CSWIP to AWS (and vice versa) you still has to pass an examination.

3.2

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 02-19-2009 14:52

3.2 Inspector

Sorry. At the risk of being pedantic, I will be somewhat more specific!!! It is "NEGATIVE" to me! (My opinion.)

I don't just "Look Down" on back door certification attempts, I hold them in "ABSOLUTE CONTEMPT". (Just in case there was some "language barrier" or "cultural differences" disconnect here!)

It is not only a matter of my own pride of accomplishment! As a member of the Certification Committee, I take the long view of the continued development and health of the AWS Certification programs as an obligation of "Faithful Stewardship" to all the CWIs who have studied, sweated and passed the test legitimately and subsequently get the certification legitimately! As a member of the Certification Committee, I feel an obligation to be sure that the program is around thirty years from now, and still engenders the same degree of respect that it commands right now!

As for Joey and his ilk, your CAWI Certificate means..... "YOU DID NOT PASS"! "YOU FLUNKED!" If you can take pride in that... Maybe it is an Eastern cultural thing?????

Joe Kane

By jrw159

Date 02-17-2009 15:49

Joey,
From this statement, "I have no intention to renew it. I just want to keep the CAWI cert forever whether it's a current or expired." it would appear that you plan on going one step farther with your blatent disregard for the AWS code of ethics and guidelines by trying to utilize this expired cert in the future, because it sure is not something to brag about. You may want to think about what the consequences are for fraudulantly utilizeing an expired certification, although I am sure where your at one would be hard pressed to find anyone who would know the differance, or even care.

You my friend, give the CAWI's out there that do abide by the guidelines, a BAD name. It is actions such as the ones mentioned by you that you and several CAWI's that you know are involved in, that cause people to have a bad taste in their mouths towards CAWI's.

jrw159

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 02-17-2009 20:08

CTACKER, HOW FAMILIAR ARE U WITH CONCENTRICITY ?

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-17-2009 20:46

I know its 2 bores ( or Radius)in relation to each other, why do you ask?

By michael kniolek (***)

Date 02-17-2009 23:16

ctacker
i was wondering about tolerances (concentric to .005 for example would that be .005 around the axis or .0025 on either side)
i think its .0025
wats ur opinion
sorry about the limited highjack but this thread was goin south
MDK

By ctacker (****)

Date 02-18-2009 04:04

its the tolerance you can deviate from the datum axis. its real hard to explain(for me anyway). if your datum is the centerline of a hole, and your tolerance was .005, you could draw a line .0025 each side of the center and that would be your tolerance zone, so If I understand you correct, your right.

By jrw159

Date 02-17-2009 15:33

Joey,
I am not sure anyone is looking down on the CAWI certification. What we do look down upon is when a CAWI blatantly disregards the AWS code of ethics and requirements by working solo. This by your own statement. "I have many friends in AST industries that have only CAWI certificates, which their employers or clients recognized as minimum requirement for welding inspector."

"CAUTION: AWS QC1-96, AWS Standard for Certification of Welding Inspectors, section 4.1.3 states:

The CAWI shall be able to perform inspections, under the direct supervision of a SCWI or CWI within visible and audible range, and as defined in 4.2. It is the SCWI or CWI, however, who has responsibility for determining if welded assemblies conform to workmanship and acceptance criteria."

When I deal with CAWI's that abide by the guidelines set forth by AWS I will help them, guide them, and do anything I can to further their advancement in this industry. By your own statements, I gather that you failed to score high enough to achieve the CWI status, rather than having a passing score and not enough time in the industry. You know the rules as well as I and any other AWS certified inspector, so to you I say "You are an ASSociate welding inspector and that A means your A** did NOT PASS!"

When you inspect using your CAWI without the direct supervision of a CWI you are violating the code of ethics you swore to and you are doing your customers/clients, as well as yourself, a disservice.

BTW, good luck on renewing your CAWI. Let me know how that works out for you. :-)

jrw159

By jrw159

Date 02-16-2009 16:01

CAUTION: AWS QC1-96, AWS Standard for Certification of Welding Inspectors, section 4.1.3 states:

The CAWI shall be able to perform inspections, under the direct supervision of a SCWI or CWI within visible and audible range, and as defined in 4.2. It is the SCWI or CWI, however, who has responsibility for determining if welded assemblies conform to workmanship and acceptance criteria.

IMHO this is pretty cut and dry. :-)

jrw159

By johnnyh (***)

Date 02-17-2009 17:20

Normally I wouldnt be siding with Joey as we have clashed on here before. But since he is in Asia, what good would an American cert do anyway? I wouldn't expect them to qualify to our standards. I may be wrong though.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 02-17-2009 17:38

Logic says that they would not be taking the time to bring AWS CWI exams to that part of the world if they were not in demand.

I think this discussion got off on the wrong foot to be sure.

If the forigen authorities demand AWS code adherence and forigen employers are demanding CWI's than it only makes sense that complience to the AWS paradigm as it applies to the roles of CWI's and CAWI's should be taken seriously.

Now this notion may be new for some of our international friends who may in fact be newly introduced to that type of viewpoint.

Obviously the AWS, the forigen employers and the inspectors overseas have all gone to some lengths to establish quality programs and credentials associated with them....

Best that we work together to encourage compliance with code and support those folks who are discovering a new way to do things.

By jrw159

Date 02-17-2009 17:54

Lawrence,
Very good observation. I also agree that we should work together to encourage compliance, as well as to help further the advancement.

I may sound harsh in some of my statements, but as I have said, I am more than willing to help someone in any way I can, but as most know, when it becomes a blatant disregard, or just plain fraudulant, I am a "Hang em high" type of guy.

To be honest, I do not think this is anything new to Joey. He is as aware of the guidelines as the rest of us, at least he should be. The CAWI restrictions are well worded and distributed. IE no secret.

Respectfully,
jrw159 :-)

By johnnyh (***)

Date 02-17-2009 19:23

You're right and I knew that. Thanks for lining me out.

By jrw159

Date 02-17-2009 17:46

I would think that it would only apply to products intended for use here (Contract specifications?). Other than that, I agree. Regardless, it is a violation of the code of ethics and guidelines for him to utilize the CAWI without the direct supervision of a CWI. Lets just hope the product is not destined for the USA, as I would have issues with anything inspected by someone who has that level of disregard, who knows what else is not being followed.

Now he may very well be an excellant inspector, but the disregard puts him in a very bad light and opens up the opportunity for question. IE what else does he not care to adhere to in his infinate wisdom as a CAWI, or any of his other certifications for that matter.

Of course Johhny, I am probably preaching to the chior as I am sure you are well aware of the things I am saying.

jrw159 :-)

By 3.2 Inspector (***)

Date 02-17-2009 18:56

You are very very wrong.

3.2

By johnnyh (***)

Date 02-17-2009 19:19

Not the first time. Won't be the last.

By Superflux (****)

Date 02-17-2009 19:34

It matters not where in the world someone is working. Much of our work is outsourced to foreign contractors. The new Bay Bridge in San Francisco is being pre-fabricated China and is utilizing CWI's, NDT II's and III's. U.S. Embassy's are another example of our crendentials being used overseas.
I've seen plenty of CAWI's violating the ear-shot and visual contact clause. Often times substituting their own self imposed standards on quality ie. giving ALL Inspector's a bad image.
I'm not much of the "whistle blower" type. So if on a project as a craftsperson with them, it is far more gratifying to demean them in front of others with facts and never let on that I have a CWI in the wallet.
Whether current or expired, the CAWI and CWI are both like any other cert in this line of work. It shows a prospective employer that you have had the training and ability at one point in time.
Some are just not cut out to make the grade just as many excellent athletes cannot quite get the pro contract.
Me personally, I do Not check the box for the CAWI when taking the exam. I'm not overly competitive, but I'd rather not be First Loser on a professional cert.
Some people have to take their State Bar Exam more than once B4 passing...

By kipman

Date 02-17-2009 23:54

johnnyh,
FYI, I have spent significant time in South Korea. It has a very active AWS section and many, many CWIs. The CWI certification if held in high regard there.
Mankenberg

By johnnyh (***)

Date 02-18-2009 00:35

OK, let me admit that I was wrong one more time. In this particular case though, it seems that being a CAWI isn't so bad.