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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / What is the differents between ferrite percentage and FN
- - By marswl Date 02-20-2009 14:02 Edited 02-20-2009 14:04
Hello!
I do`nt kown what is the differents between ferrite percentage and ferrite number,May anybody tell me?
Thank you very much!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-20-2009 21:48
Percentage of ferrite is pretty much a thing of the past. It was based on metallographic examinations of a small sample and resulted in different percentages depending on who was doing the examination.

Ferrite numbers are measured using a "calibrated" gage that measure the amount of magnetic force attracting a magnet toward a sample. It is based on the principle that the "attraction" is proportional to the amount of ferrite present. It is more of a "macro" measurement and provides better consistancy from one lab to another.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By GRoberts (***) Date 02-21-2009 21:22
Ferrite percent is relatively self explanitory.  FN is an arbitrary scale that measures the magnetic response of the material.  FN is a more repeatable measurement, so when possible to use, it is the preferred method.  However, it is not always possible to acurately determine FN because the magnetic response is determined over a fairly large area, so it would not be preferred for trying to measure the ferrite content of a weld HAZ since that is so narrow.  There are ferrite conversion forumlas out there, but the FN and ferrite percent are only approximately equal below about 10 or so.  Once you get above that, the FN will be greater than the ferrite percent.
Parent - - By Chin Terry (*) Date 02-23-2009 02:05
in order to obtain FN, will destructive test must be carried out?
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 02-23-2009 19:28
No, destructive testing isn't necessary.
There are two ways to determine the FN. One is to test the material with a magnetic meter, as indicated by Al and G Roberts. A well known brand of this meter is Ferritoscope.
The other is to use the WRC 1992 diagram, based on the chemical composition of the material. WRC 1992 goes from FN 0 to 100.
To be precise, FN is equal to ferrite percentage up to and including 8%. In other words, a FN of 8 corrisponds to 8%. Above this number, they vary, as G. Roberts has pointed out.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil 
Parent - By Chin Terry (*) Date 02-24-2009 02:23
thank you
Parent - - By Nanjing Date 02-26-2009 16:18
In my experience the balance of ferrite to austenite needs to be known especially on the higher alloyed grades of stainless steel such as the family of duplex stainless steels. As stated in previous posts %age ferrite and ferrite numbers are pretty close at the lower ends however this changes drastically when you want more ferrite present. Ferrite content can be predicted by various diagrams but these do not take into consideration cooling times or dilution (Lincoln also have developed a calculation for relating ferrite content to FN numbers as ferrite increases). Magnetic gauges are also available but, in my opinion, they may not be reliable unless used by personnel who are thoroughly trained and experienced in using this equipment, I mean by this, surface profile and test location can have a major influence. I bought one on my last project for the first time and our specification referenced AWSA4.2, nothing but a minefield! I think the best method is to determine the %age ferrite during procedure qualification te by the point count method then ensure the WPS is restricted in thickness range, usually on thinner sections the the minimum thickness qualified is the thickness of the test coupon and carry out a regime of welders' audits to ensure compliance with the tried and tested procedure. Chemistry is the major inflencing factor however heat input and cooling rates will affect this.

NKG
Parent - - By Chin Terry (*) Date 02-27-2009 02:26
what you mentioned is my concern too, inaccurate reading by using instrument, problem is we can't satisfy client by cutting every weld joint for sampling test.
Parent - By Nanjing Date 02-27-2009 13:35
Just make sure the welders work strictly in accordance with the WPS and you will produce sound welds. If your welders will not work to the WPS, for example, do not weld within the heat input range and interpass temperature then you will have a problem. Most welders who are experienced in welding these kind of materials do know the do's and dont's so they have no excuse if they disregard the WPS.
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 09-11-2009 20:24
Some specs, like Tech Pub 248, allow you to qualify a procedure and use the macros from that test plate to calibrate magnetic measuring instruments for in process work.  Table VII, note 23.  This may be a possibility for your application. 
Parent - - By cwi49cwe (*) Date 09-20-2009 16:08
Please,,,,,,,,, I use these forum threads as much for learning as anything else, the experts out there have my humble respect and attention, 35 years in this business an I never get tired of learning,   Identify please the TECH PUB 248,  Table VII, note 23 .......... what's the master publication, were can I go to get it ????
My library could use something new. I might already have it , I don't know, I don't recall seeing this.
Parent - By MMyers (**) Date 09-21-2009 14:39
It's a Navy spec. 

S9074-AQ-GIB-010/248
NAVSEA Technical Publication
"Requirements for Welding and Brazing Procedure and Performance Qualification"
1 August 1995

I'll type out all of that note verbatim tonight. 
Parent - By marswl Date 02-25-2009 21:47
Thank you !
Parent - - By marswl Date 02-27-2009 14:24
Hello!GRoberts ,Why the FN is an dimensionless term?
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-11-2009 16:26
marswl,

to be honest, a longer time ago I wanted to know the same.

That was the reason that I have occupied myself with this interesting subject.

By the handwritten notes I have prepared that time please let me try to answer. Hopefully this hasn't been already done?

First of all, as been pointed out by the other forum fellow members, there appear to exist real severe problems in determining the exact ferrite percentage due to there exist a plenty of different methods in doing so.

Amongst others, in 1969 some valuable investigations were conducted (RATZ, G. A., GUNIA, R. B.: How Accurate are Methods for Measuring Ferrite? Metal Progr. 76, pp. 76-80, 1969). To keep it short, they have investigated how accurate the results were, which have been supplied or found out respectively, by 11 different companies and institutes, specialised in determining delta-ferrite contents. And the outcome proved it impossible to exactly determine the ferrite percentage. Neither by empirical formulae nor by the experimental methodologies. They could show that by up to a total content of 10% delta ferrite the scatter band amounted to +/- 3%. For total contents of 10… 24% whereas, the variation amounted to +/- 6%.

Another investigation with respect to approve or falsify these results was carried out by the IIW between 1971 and 1973 (Final Report on the Cooperative Testing Programme 1971 – 1973 on the Measurement of Ferrite in Austenitic Stainless Weld Metal , Welding in the World 12, pp. 17 – 26, 1974). Providing an approximate value of 3.5%, the measurements laid between 2.0% and 6.5%. Providing an approximate value of 7.5%, the measured results were stated between 5.5% and 12.5%. The final benchmark was set with an approximate value of 15.5%, and the scatter band laid between 11.9% and 29.0%(!). Other investigations have confirmed these partial massive variation and it could be shown that the higher the delta ferrite content, the greater the scattering. So far, and of course, this confirms what the other fellows have stated herein before.

Coming back to the question where the Ferrite-Numbers do come from or why they are dimensionless. Well, as so often our most appreciated fellow member Al (803056) has already shared the solution with us. Therefore let me quote what he wrote at that time:

“Ferrite numbers are measured using a "calibrated" gage that measure the amount of magnetic force attracting a magnet toward a sample.”

This method has been suggested by W.T. DeLong in 1974. And as far as my notes are correct, it came directly from the USA by have been published in (DeLong, W. T.: Ferrite in Austenitic Stainless Steel Weld Metal , AWS Welding Journal 53, Research Supplements, pp. 273 – 280, 1974). It has, to the best of my knowledge, even been taken over by the IIW and been published as  the ‘Standard’ method to specify the delta ferrite in a different way than before (percentage determination). DeLong’s methodology was based on what 803056 has so excellently described. A defined or “calibrated” permanent magnet is used to attract an austenitic weld metal sample. Simply put, the higher the delta ferrite content of this sample is, the higher the tear-off force to separate the sample from the magnet. This is a real improved way, since the force is not affected by any other or additional phases, eventually also originated by delta ferrite but even being non ferromagnetic. 

In other words, the tear-off force is an indirect value for the weld metal’s delta ferrite content. And now coming slowly to the fact that the FN are ‘dimensionless'. The tear-off force gauging is based on internationally agreed standards. I must apologise, but in Germany it’s called ‘Primärer Eichstandard’ and it’s hard for me to translate this into a proper English term. Anyway, the gauges used for calibration are specimen made of unalloyed steel, clad by copper layers of different thicknesses. Copper however, is non ferromagnetic. In other words. The thicker the copper layer, the lower the tear-off force. And here we go. A particular copper layer thickness – and here we are again with ‘GRoberts’ statement saying: “FN is an arbitrary scale that measures the magnetic response of the material…” – is now allocated to a particular FN.

According to my notes e.g. a copper layer thickness of 1.778 mm (0.07”) is allocated to the Ferrite Number ‘FN 3’. A layer thickness of 1.194 mm (~ 0,047”) is allocated to FN 5 and finally (at least according to my notes) a layer thickness of 0.610 mm (~ 0,024”) corresponds to the Ferrite Number ‘FN 10’.

Ah, I almost forgot. Not knowing if this is true, but at least it’s quite well imaginable. As it must be accurate, certainly it must, the gauges shall be prepared in the United States of America with the National Bureau of Standards.

Hope this helps.

Stephan
Parent - - By marswl Date 09-12-2009 03:17
Thanks to Stephan!A good teacher O(∩_∩)O~
I havn'know it so clearly before reading your article.
Thanks a lot!
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-12-2009 09:26
It's been a pleasure.

Thank YOU!
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 09-12-2009 19:42
excellent post, much better than I could of said.
It's already been said but Ferrite numbers and % are at best accurate predictions and the accuracy of all the available methods are not 100%
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-21-2009 23:36
Stephan, as always you've gone the extra kilometer to explain what, how, and why. Excellent!.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-25-2009 14:55
Al,

have seen your kind reply rather incidentally!

Good Lord, what a compliment coming from you - as being my one and only example!

Thank you, Sir!

All the best,
Stephan

P.S. I am hardly trying to refine myself in shortening the sentences. It's not that long ago when I've been told by an outstanding personality that my contributions are very often hard to digest! ;-)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-25-2009 15:47 Edited 09-25-2009 16:00
Hello Stephan;

I'm certain that I speak for many of us that look forward to reading the replies you post. I find your references to the researchers that developed the information you cite very useful. It provides a simple means of searching out additional information on the subject matter discussed.

I should take the time to give a word of recognition and thanks to our friend Henry as well. The links he provides from time to time always provide me with an excuse to idle a few more hours at the computer keyboard. The time is well spent, but the hours of sleep loss can never be recovered. Curses! ;)

I would like to extend my gratitude and thanks to Jon, John, Gerald, Lawrence, Giovanni, and the rest of you, too numerous to mention, for your contributions to the accumulated wealth of information available to anyone that participates in the Forum.

I can recall certain tidbits of information, but my brain is too small and too plaque encrusted to remember all the details of who did what or when. I'm lucky to recall a minor kernel of information gleaned from reading all the article and links people provide. Time is always in short supply and I'm too lazy to search out who did the initial research, so, I tip my hat to all my friends that freely provide us with insight on the subjects we find so intriguing. Thank you all for doing what you do so well.

Welcome one and all to the "Clique".

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-25-2009 16:00
Al!

So well said!

Please let me join you in thanking the ones you have stated, as well as the tremendous number of all of those you haven't listed (e.g. aevald, Joe Kane, js55, jrw 159,...) and in particular yourself !

I have learned more than I can tell and I am still learning each time I attend this 'World's Greatest Welding Forum' (Copyright by ssbn727 :-))

All the best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-25-2009 16:08
My word Stephan, where are you? I barely hit the key and your response is here!

I can't stay on-line too long, I just got off the phone with a new client about a structural failure.  I have to go take a look at it to see what went amiss. You just never know what the next phone call will bring.

I was suppose to look for a new electric range. Ours sighed it's last kilowatt a couple of days ago and we need a new one post haste! Once again, my wife will have to survive on microwave dinners while I'm on the run with a new assignment!

I love this work! It isn't a job, it's an adventure!

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-25-2009 16:18
Al!

You know what?

There are not that many but... you are one of those who are truly and honestly admired by myself!

Yourself and the great people you mentioned in your previous post form the strong backbone of the welding community of the US of America!

Let me ask you a humble favour! Once, you will retire (will this ever happen?), please write a book and I swear I'll be the first to buy it! But please don't forget to particularly mention your beloved wife! :-)

Stephan
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / What is the differents between ferrite percentage and FN

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