Lack of proper info

Date 03-17-2009 13:06

Hello all,
I did not want to highjack a similar thread with my rant so here it is.

I was sent a shop drawing last week from an engineer in Australia that had no welding notes and no weld symbols. The only welding instructions were the words "Complete penetration butt weld" with two arrows pointing to two seperate joints. One being a butt joint and the other a tee joint. this is incorrect, plus there were several joints not addressed. I sent it back with an RFI stating that I needed to know the joint configuration/symbols in accordance with AWS A2.4 The next day I get the revised drawing back with an added note at the bottom that reads "All welds 1/4" continuous fillet weld as per AWS D1.1 unless otherwise noted" Still no symbols. I then sent it back again with the AWS weld symbols chart and the weld joint types chart. Then I finally got what I needed. Yesterday I received another drawing from him that had the same note, but did have adequate symbols, however the 1/4" continuous fillet weld note bit him in the butt, as there is a peice of 3/8 x 3 x 22' 4 3/16" long piece that gets welded to a peice of 8' x 3/8 HSS. Thats alot of weld (can you say bannana?) for what this peice is intended for. Now I usually do not question engineering too much, but I know the intent and purpose of said peice, as does the shop foreman and the production supervisor. It is basically a backing bar that the fabric is attached to. At best a 6 on 8 intermittent fillet weld would be excessive. He was a little upset that we did not just proceed and ignore his note. "You know what I mean, just weld it up." NOPE We will weld it per the shop drawing provided. He has revised the drawing to reflect less weld.

LOL, rant over.

jrw159

By Ke1thk

Date 03-17-2009 14:37

I can see you point. I can also see your customers'.

I have customers that wouldn't know a stainless steel rod from an aluminum rod. All they know is that they need their part welded properly. I have a customer that let's me decide how to weld their part. His thinking is that I know more about welding than He ever will. We even draw his drawings ($$$).

I try to "wow" my customers by giving them more than they expect. If I'm not sure of something, or feel that doing that something another way would be better, I'll contact my customer and ask. I think that communication builds strong partnerships. I want to be my customer's number one choice for his welding needs.

Good Luck,

Keith

By jrw159

Date 03-17-2009 15:12

Keith,
I like to help when and where I can, but I also have to be VERY carefull in how I do this so as not to put myself in the "engineering" role, as I am not one. Especially with our product as it is generally over the heads of family's and children.

FYI, I guess it was unclear (my fault) in the original post, this guy is not the customer, he is just doing the shop drawings based off of the design drawings. He is a third party. The design is agreed upon, then sent to him for shop drawings. Esentially us and our customer, are his customers. Hope that makes sense.

jrw159 :-)

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 03-17-2009 19:37

Hello guys,
I first posted on here in 2003 when I was experiencing major difficulties on a project I was working on in Australia. It was an $80 million dragline and the manufacturer was a major American company.
The symbols shown on the contractors (OEMs) drawings were single vee with backing strip, 2" was shown to the left of the vee and 2" was shown beside that in brackets. Inside the vee was 0 and above 1/4".
My interpretation was that it was 2" thick plate, 2" deep penetration, zero root face and 1/4" wide root opening.
When they failed UT I was told by the contractor they were only meant to be partial penetration welds, try figuring that one out ???
Regards,
Shane

By jrw159

Date 03-17-2009 19:44

Shane,
Yeah, I here you. :-)

To All that read this,
Let me add, the only reason I mentioned this instance from Austrailia was because these were the last two I have dealt with recently. I did not mean for it to sound like I was bashing on the guys Down Under, or anywhere else for that matter. I have run across this very same thing coming from engineers from all over. :-)

So I apoligize if it came across that way guys and gals.

jrw159

By rodofgod (**)

Date 03-17-2009 23:39

Hi All!

I, too have noticed a distinct lack of welding info/understanding, on many drawings over the last few years! This, eventually, costs someone a considerably amount of money! Not to mention the on-site problems of trying to weld a joint as per drawing, when it's clearly not right. These problems sometimes, will not get picked up until the welder or fitter points out the implacabilities of the joint in relationship to the job in hand! At the moment,the job I'm on now has over 1900 TQ's about Isometrics/Drawings and most are regarding welding joints or proximity of welds! Work that out in man hours!

Regards

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 03-18-2009 00:27

No apology necessary John.
I am from Australia, Rodofgod is from Britain and you are from the States.
We have all experienced poor drawings so it definitely isn't restricted to any particular part of the world.
And there is nothing wrong with Aussie bashing (I am actually from New Zealand)
Cheers,
Shane

By jrw159

Date 03-18-2009 00:37

COOL beans, I just reread my post and realized it might appear that my issue was with a poor practice and a specific area, rather than just a poor practice, so I thought I would clarify.

New Zealand??? I heard about you guys..... :-)

John

By Metarinka (****)

Date 03-18-2009 03:13

now now don't feed the kiwi's ( dated Kiwi for awhile very nice gal, no one could ever place her accent)

anyways I've seen this a lot in companies I've worked at that traditionally have mechanical or design engineers specifiying welds and designing weldment details. More often than not conservative welding is thought to be stronger so instead of sitting down to the math about weld size or length it's easy to slap on full weld or "weld all around". without concern for heat input, distortion or residual stress.

during my internship I was tasked with reviewing prints of standard parts and I was able to cut out over 100' of welded length from several of our common products they were that severely over welded. They were good engineers when it came to product design but if it's not your area of expertise than you don't pick up on the nuances of weld design theory.

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-20-2009 13:29

How about an "all around" PJP weld symbol attaching base plates to wide flange columns, and in the tail, the note 75% depth??? If you bevel the inside of a 1" flange 75% deep, and then go to the outside of the flange and bevel it 75% deep..... duh huh! This was on a design drawing. I've seen some crazy things. The latest was that the design drawings showed an intermittent fillet weld, joining stainless plates to the top side of galvanized embed plates. The kicker...... the stainless plates had to be glued to the embed plate prior to welding, with the note to make sure that heat from welding does not affect the bond.

By hogan

Date 03-20-2009 15:25

One of the oddest one I've seen was an engineer wanted a 1" dia stud welded to the top of a beam the was to be 20" in height. He was told that they do not make 20" tall studs. So he had this symbol where there was a stud weld symbol with the # 1 to the left under this was the 10" and under this was another stud symbol with a 1 to the left and 10" under that. I'll try to post a picture.

Attachment: stud.pdf (40k)

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-20-2009 16:45

Must have been the same detailer I had from years ago. Had the exact same symbol once about 15 yrs ago. LOL

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 03-20-2009 16:17

Oooooh! Stainless welded to galvanized - doubleplus ungood.

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-20-2009 16:19

Only after galv coating was removed. Besides that, if the welds fail, the glue will hold it all together, right?

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 03-23-2009 13:14

Actually that IS the theory behind it all. We have made slide bearings where thin, mirror-finished, stainless was welded to thick carbon steel bearing plates. We had to glue the stainless on and the GTAW around the perimeter. The engineers wanted glue so the plates couldn't "wrinkle" up under the load. (It seems that any load that could wrinkle the plate could disbond the glue as well. Weight on top of the plate would keep it flat - but whatever they want.)
I never have heard any complaints, so I can't say it works or doesn't.