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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Illegal workers
- - By Johnyutah (**) Date 04-28-2009 03:53
All right this is spinning out of control over in shop talk but I think it's a good topic to discuss what are your thoughts on this. Such as what can be done should employers be held more responsible, any new legislation that could help. In utah police and highway patrol can soon cross deputize to enforce immigration laws this could save a lot tax dollars since they are already on staff and we would need less immigration officers. And I am not looking for a race war on this please use the term illegal and no racist slang I want this to be from an economic stand point how does this hurt American workers. In Utah this is a huge problem the guys that run under the radar are taking all the work at or below cost do we turn them in or wait for the government to do it's job. I think employers should pay huge fines if they are caught employing illegal workers this would make them start up more extensive back ground checks before hiring. Also gangs here are becoming a problem and the majority of the time the offenders which in most cases involves a shooting are illegal.
Parent - By raftergwelding (*****) Date 04-28-2009 05:16
i say reprot them if you wanna work here then do it the right way. i'm sure they have families to take care of but hell so do we
Parent - - By FixaLinc (****) Date 04-28-2009 05:37
For quite a while Texas DPS has been pulling troopers state wide to head south for 2 week tour to battle with illegals and drug trafficking because our fed goverment hasn't been doing it's job.  It's been costing some states more for a while not getting federal help on it.  Same way on employing illegals they busted one meat packing plant here and then just look the other way at the rest of them doing nothing when the feds know it's going on.  Fine the government for NOT doing their job too! 
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 04-28-2009 08:12 Edited 04-28-2009 11:54
Anyone found to be working illegally should be reported and any assets should be confiscated. All confiscated assets should be auctioned off and the money should be put back into the local economy. Any employer found KNOWINGLY employing an illegal immigrant should be fined and lose rights to work on federal, state or local contracts for a predetermined amount of time as per severity of offense. All funding to include possible business loans that are sponsored by the state or federal government should also be revoked from the offending employer.
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 04-28-2009 17:27
A lot of those laws are already in place though.  It's government here on the take not doing their jobs they are becoming as crooked as those south of the border.  When I worked FD in city saw way too many little cocktail fire bombs throw into windows of gang members that poised in public as normal folks on the outside till you saw the other side of them in the shadows and many governent officials are same way now days.  
Parent - By uphill (***) Date 04-28-2009 11:14
The illegals are in force in Minnesota also. Almost every storm re-roof job has twice the illegal workers than a legal crew. Sort of tells you the wages paid  EH? There is some legislation to combat it but then the big cities are sancuary cities, where they dont ID so good. do not to offend a fellon you know. Some of the illegals are fantastic workers but lack the whatever to be here legally. I imagine some are fellons and wanted elswhere but no-one seems to give a rats a** about that aspect.
Our government is going out of there way to make the problem worse so they can give amnesty. That anti-American way of making bigger government has to stop, hopefully in 2010 the freeloading handouts (senate and house) will have to file for un employment themselves.  Remember who voted for all of this spending spree and vote them out of office.
Funny thing is that if it wasnt such a voting numbers issue they might not vote in the amnesty bill in at all. Send them back to whatever country they came from and make them apply to become legal US citizens, how else will you have a handle on who they actually are?  You want a child molester driving your daughter or some to school?  Maybe an aids infected cook at you favorite watering hole?

  The more we all yell and scream about this the less the "O" administration can pretend its OK with his America.  Oops I think I made a bad asumption. That he gives a crap anyway.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 04-28-2009 12:11
This guy is trying to do something about it. lol Funny stuff right here  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-VmrL23zek
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 14:05
OK, before I make my statement, let me be very clear about something. My wife is spanish, at least half of my best friends are spanish, and the majority of my coworkers at my current job are spanish or puruvian. They are all legal.

We all think that video is funny as he**!!!! The illegal's are making it rough on them as well.

jrw159
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 04-28-2009 13:05
This is an age old delimma that has many aspects that must be looked into.

We seem to want to blame the illegals more than the AMERICAN business owners just like we want to blame the Chinese for "taking" our jobs and not the AMERICAN companies that leave us with no means of production in search of infinte profit.

If the immigration "problem" was handled years ago then America wouldn't be so in dire need of illegals.  They have become one of the many necessary evils that we need to survive as a country.  I know that many people want to immediately deport everyone without papers, but thank about the reprocussions of such a feat.  Trillions of dollars to locate, hold and transport them to their native countries. 

Then what about their children that might have been born here.  The are American citizens and have every right that we have too.  Not to mention the moral conflicts that would arise.

The money that illegals spend on basic necessities is an immense number.  They have to eat, they need gas, etc.  Deportation, if it could be done, would bankrupt the country not to mention Wal-Mart. 

In my own honestly Left-wing opinion, since the illegal population and their citizen children are so vast and important to our economy, the only way to "deal" with this is to devise an amnesty plan.  With amnesty it would give them rights to a more equal wage from their employers and would also give them the all important American right to PAY TAXES too.  They could acquire insurance through their employer also which would eleviate the strain on our broken health care system.

Now if there were only a few hundred illegals then deportation could be accomplished but with upwards of 10-20 million and their dependents there must be intelligent decisions to make sure that all sides are covered.  You know "cutting off your nose despite your face". 

Thats what I got for you, now lets spend the rest of the day kicking me in the balls.  :-)
Parent - By Johnyutah (**) Date 04-28-2009 13:53
I won't kick you in the balls Bryon your comments are always well thought out. However on the moral end of things they who ever they may be have already ruined there country and now come to ours then lie to get a job thats not very moral. If you lie about your citizenship then you yourself have run the risk of having your family torn apart just as any other criminal these are the laws and they should be enforced. If you broke a law and had to do time in prison your family can come and visit and so can an illegal workers family if he or she gets deported. There now american citizen children will have to go into the system like all the rest thats the parents fault not ours play by the rules or stay home very simple. And as I stated over in shop talk how are we to compete with this I can't even buy a job because of this in Utah. And I for one don't have any problem at all tearing families apart so mine can live a life that all Americans have a right to I don't want to live in one house with everyone I'm related to just to get by but that seems like the road this country is heading down. Already you hear of pay cuts and huge layoffs rig welders dropping there rates this won't help anyone but the fat cats and most of all the illegal workers. So as I head out to fight the good fight today I say don't give an inch don't drop your rates don't loose your job to illegal workers turn them all in and contact your local government lets let them know how this effects us as Americans I would rather spend billions in immigration reform than what we have spent billions on so far.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 14:10 Edited 04-28-2009 14:22
"They have become one of the many necessary evils that we need to survive as a country. "
This is absurd.

"Trillions of dollars to locate, hold and transport them to their native countries. "
Whatever amount this would really turn out to be (trillions is an extreme exaggeration) is pittance compared to the loss in public services to people many of which do not pay taxes.

"Then what about their children that might have been born here."
Anchor babbies are no excuse for people to continue to get away with breaking the law. And in my opinion the automatic citizenship law should be changed. We are one of only a very few countries that do this.

"The money that illegals spend on basic necessities is an immense number."
It is a fact that the number of illegals directly effects the allowable number of legal immigrants who would easily make up for any number spent on basic neccessties. It never ceases to amaze me that we seem to have so much sympathy for those who break the law and NONE for those who try to do it right. As if the illegals are the only ones suffering at home.

"In my own honestly Left-wing opinion, since the illegal population and their citizen children are so vast and important to our economy, the only way to "deal" with this is to devise an amnesty plan."
Amnesty isn't dealing with it. Amnesty is a refusal to deal with it. And it makes it worse because it sends the message that we aren't going to deal with it in the future either. Those who speak of amnesty act like this amnesty will be the last one. Amnesty is like wipin your azz with a hoola hoop. Theres no end to it. Or have we all forgotten the last amnesty?

"Now if there were only a few hundred illegals then deportation could be accomplished but with upwards of 10-20 million and their dependents there must be intelligent decisions to make sure that all sides are covered."
If throwing up your hands and saying I give up lets just let them come on in is an intelligent decision I gotta say, I'm not seeing it. Besides you do not need to deport them all. I lived in Houston for years. When the government would have the occasional crackdowns they would disappear. Now they didn't just hang out at the house peaking out of the curtains. Many went back across the border in fear. This is good thing. A person should fear breaking the law.

"Thats what I got for you, now lets spend the rest of the day kicking me in the balls."
You like that sort of thing?  :)
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 14:19
"We seem to want to blame the illegals more than the AMERICAN business owners"
This one I would agree with. Sanctions on employers is one of the best ways to deal with this in a multi pronged approach.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 04-28-2009 14:55
I must like getting kicked in the balls or I wouldn't post anything here. 
But at least this way I don't have to pay for it......  :-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 15:02 Edited 04-28-2009 15:04
Bryon,
  I am not going to kick you in the balls, the waiting line is way too long for me, LOL. :-) I will say I agree with ONE point you make. The American business that hires illegals should face serious repercussions. Up to and including legal ramifications that could under severe cases result in loss of ones business and incarceration.

One good thing for you now is you know a job you could be doing is not being done by an illegal. AWS CWI, get it? Welders, however do not have that same luck.

jrw159
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 15:38
Let me ask this.
If you keep having Amnesties what then does the word amnesty mean?

Definition of Amnesty:
A legal process wherein the legislative branch of government, wishing to address a difficult situation, rendered even more difficult by lack of legislative resolve, simply redefines conditions so as not to appear difficult any longer.
Synonymous with sticking ones head in the sand and presenting ones posterior to continuing violation.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 04-28-2009 16:10
How should the US feel about armed foreign nationals invading our country? How should we feel about supporting waves of millions of immigrants that do not even have the ability to stand up for them selves? Those who run from there problems, not stand up and fight to make there nation a better place. This is VERY different than how this country was founded. Did our forefathers flee the tyranny of a democracy? No!
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 04-28-2009 17:00
Ah, but the forefathers of our forefathers left England, France, Germany and many others due to various reasons to come here and take the freedoms of Native Americans.  They ran from their problems in their Motherlands, too.  Native Americans would have a similar notion about ALL others regardless of when and how we all got here. 

Why did my ancestors come here from Scotland in 1769?  My wife's family didn't cross the border, the border crossed them when Texas became independent from Mexico.  This country was indeed started and built by refugees, from various places and for various reasons.  The new illegals are not much different than the old illegals.

From what I understand, in Ellis Island when Italians were getting off the boats in the early 1900s they were seperated into 2 groups:  those with papers and those With Out Papers.  WOPs.  That name still is used in a derogatory manner.

Native Americans had problems with the English, Dutch, French and Spanish that came here early on.  Then the English, Dutch, French and Spanish had problems with the Irish (Protestants), Germans and Italians.  Then the Irish (Protestants), Germans and Italians had problems with Irish (Catholics), Russians, Japanese, Poles and others.

Now that most of us have lost our ancestral identity and become "Americans" we have issues with everyone else, Chinese, Mexicans, Indians (dot not the feather) and Arabs.  The more groups are ostracized by the current incarnation of Americans, the more than collapse into their own communities where they don't need to assimilate.  I had the pleasure of working with many Laotians for 7 years and got to know them pretty well.  I was one of the few Americans that would talk with them and learn a lot about their culture and their stories.  A white guy was giving them shi* one day because many of them lived in the same neighborhood and had their own store they shopped in, etc.  So he asked them why did they live together and stay as close nit as they were.

One Lao got tired of his insults and said something to the effect of:  We live together because we don't want to live by Azz Holes like you that Fu*k with us all the time.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 18:15
"The new illegals are not much different than the old illegals."

Your equating the word 'illegal' in those contexts is profoundly misleading. Unless you want to argue how those who were segregated by government officials because they didn't have papers (called processing), and were indeed people with no greater desire than to become Americans, learn the language, and assimilate themselves into American society is somehow the same legal status as those who never even present themselves to the government AT ALL, and steadfastly refuse to assimilate themselves to America. Not only do they not have papers so to speak, they don't even officially exist. At least not until they need government services.
Where indeed is the Ellis Island processing center in the desert scrub of southern Texas, New Mexico, or Arizona for those illegals?
Parent - By hogan (****) Date 04-28-2009 18:16
Let's hear some arguments that apply to the world today. I think that it is obvious that Europeans would never be allowed to take a sovereign nation away from it's people in 2009. israel is the last example of this. None of your examples are dealing with the statements I made.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 04-28-2009 17:01
Oh but John, I CAN'T GET A GODDAMN CWI JOB EITHER.  hahahahaha  :-)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-28-2009 18:15
Bryon,
  Just out of curiousity, for arguments sake. Would you be a little mad if you knew for a fact that there were five illegals working as CWI's within a ten mile radius of you?

Now we know that is probably not ever going to be the case, but again, just for arguments sake.

John
Parent - By swnorris (****) Date 04-28-2009 19:43
They're not illegals.  They're guest workers. 
Parent - - By uphill (***) Date 04-28-2009 21:33
You must have brass balls, but it is your first ammendment that makes these informative and seemingly intentionally contraversal points.

If the illegals are allowed to be pardoned for their felonies who is next? The senators?  The prez?

The funny thing is that the majority of americans with job dont have a clue just how much of the assistance in america is given to these fellons. Section 8 housing, free medical, food stamps, heat assistance and the list goes on. The turkey and chicken processers here in Minnesota use lots of imigrants. I would guess its about 80% of their workforce. I have a freind who works for a major turkey plant in central MN. He tells horror stories of the companies bends over backwards to keep the cheap help. Like the 5-6 language anouncements, separate breaks, prayer rooms ect. It cant be far from being as costly as hiring some good old real American workers but the thought of not being pollitically correct has them scared to death. The Government would have some serious fines for not being kind let alone the endless lawsuits.

The law that makes people born into citizenship is as outdated as the electorial college. I spent some time looking for the statute that makes an illegals child a us citizen but there are some 55,000 pages to sort through. I am sure it wont ever be overturned anyway, the votes are too important. Nice to know that your parents are wanted fellons anyway. Gives them something to hide under the couch for!

I believe anytime you can fix a problem of this magnitude you should do so. No-one should be allowed to become a legal US citizen without a background check. Living under the protection of the US Constitution should not be sold. A lot of great men and women died protecting those rights. I wont be the one who spits on the graves of heros!

  The users of the fellon labor should be fined and shut down. Lets not forget to vote for politicions who share our views. (You too Byron)

I am not sorry to be an American. Nobody needs to make excuses for my beliefs or behavior. Sure my great grandparents came here from overseas, learned english, came in legally and cherished being citizens of the USA. I am proud to be an American, dont mind paying my fair share of taxes for required purposes. Not to be confused with the Skimulus.

Good luck on your job hunting, something will come your way. Dont give up.
Parent - - By BryonLewis (****) Date 04-28-2009 22:15
I've thought about it for a while now.  And I have come to the conclusion that I don't view people differently with or without papers.  I have my own personal villains that I hold responsible for much of the world troubles both currently and historically.  I can't blame anyone for doing whatever they have to do, at least morally, to live.  I would draw the line at strippers. But that's a whole other story.

If I lived in a deplorable place like Nicaragua, Mexico or wherever, I would certainly do whatever I have to do to get along.  I know people from many places around the world that have came here many different ways.  Either serving with Americans in Vietnam or whatever.  I have great sympathy for another human that would piece together a raft out of crap they find in a dump to make the journey from Havana to Miami.  Or someone that is willing to run across the Sonoran desert to come here and work.  I have a hell of a lot more respect for these guys than those that come here to go to college and stay. 

"We're all squirrels looking for the nut". 
Parent - - By rfieldbuilds (**) Date 04-29-2009 02:20
OK, so lets make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. That seperates those allowed to and not allowed to work here. Right? Now, let's look at health care. No difference in service legal or illegal. Oh wait. Who pays the bill. The legal immegrants and their descendants. Lets look at education. Who's entitled. Under current laws everyone is... Who pays All right, we all get the picture.
Immigration has to be controlled. Like drugs (methodone)and alcohol. Even the lefties here have to see the logic. Otherwise, we would all agree that "liberalism is a mental disorder".

Let the fists fly, I'm ready.
Parent - - By HillbillyWelder (**) Date 04-29-2009 03:14 Edited 04-29-2009 03:18
(1st) You we me all of us have to get rid of corporate greed
(2nd) The gov't will never do its job, let alone on time unless it affects some fat cat in DC
(3rd) I know some of yall don't like Unions..but to be a Union Member you have to be an American Citizen..no guest worker....so lets Unionize
Problem solved...I know I know you are saying the Unions will get greedy..I say they wont if you elect the right people
OBTW Im not politically affliated with either Left or Right...Im Independent...sorry all you Repubs and Dems
Parent - - By 250pipeliner (**) Date 04-29-2009 04:17
illegal immigrants will always be here no matter what! so what to do? im a Mexican/American born here, in Ca. my parents immigrated to America in the late 60's. they came here legally on work visas and later became citizens. on one hand i want sypathize with immigrants that come here to crate a better life for themselves just like my parents did. and i understand what this cheaper workforce is doing to the wages. and that a lot of rotten apples are spoiling the bunch. but Byron has made a lot good points you cant lagistically remove all these people from our population without suffering large economical consiquences. we cannot solely blame illegals for the state of our economy. in fact big business is whats wrong with the picture. a lot of good ole American companies have farmed so much work over-seas that our economy has suffered. GM, Ford, & Chrysler all have so much money invested in foriegn plants making parts for their autos that they never bothered to think that 'if people in the U.S. dont have a job how will they buy our products'?
hillbilly's got a good idea, unions are a good way to control the workforce, and a very good way to bargain for better wages and benefits. and the reason why politicians( govnt, unions, whatever) become greedy and crooked is that its citizens and members lack interest in whats going on. crooked politicians want you not to care not to pay attention to whats going on so that by the time you notice whats wrong its to late and is hard to change.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-29-2009 13:45
"you cant lagistically remove all these people from our population without suffering large economical consiquences."

First of all, so much concern for the economic consequences of doing something. So little concern for the economic consequences of doing nothing.
Secondly, as I stated, and has been proven over and over again, we don't have to establish and sustain the logisitcs of removing illegals. By enforcing the law and with the fear of being arrested they do much of it themselves.
This logisitcs issue as insurmountable is a myth created by those who would have us do nothing.
Parent - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 04-29-2009 09:52
Hillbilly Welder

3rd) ........but to be a Union Member you have to be an American Citizen..no guest worker..

That is pure unadulterated Male Bovine Excrement.  Maybe you are in some union that has such a rule.  Please tellus what it is.
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 04-29-2009 03:45

>I have a hell of a lot more respect for these guys than those that come here to go to college and stay.<


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaTkGgE-hXA&feature=related

Speaking of college. This former Colorado Congressman was invited to UNC April 14, 2009 to speak on illegal immigration and was chased off stage by the "free speech lovers"
This doesn't classify as a kick Bryon, a slight jab, maybe. I'm saving up.
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 04-29-2009 04:15
there will always be a problem with immigration if
A) there is lesser to no economic opprotunity in the country of origin (which is why the majority of immigrants have got here)
B) the fact that american want services but aren't willing to pay the true market price for goods

if theoretically all illegal immigrants left the country you would find that a lot of services would go up in price. good or bad? I can't say, but this would affect that vast majority of crops as well as the meat packing industry.  truth be told american citizens refuse to do this sort of work or for the most part have many more and better education opprotunities to do higher paying work. Picking fruit or working in a meat packaging plant aren't cushy jobs and I certainly wouldn't work them for the type of wages being offered or even for increased wages, would you?

as of now, net migration is in the negatives due to the current economic climate, many are traveling back to Mexico as it's not fun to work a job in a country where you don't speak the language and have to spends months and years apart from your family.

Finally illegal immigrants have a net gain on the economy since they pay taxes both when the buy products and items in the us and on their wages, yet they will (and rightfully so) never be able to tap into many systems such as social security medicare, unemployement etc. Since they cannot cash out on these systems they help prop up those who can.
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Illegal workers

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