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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Short Cicuit,Globular, or Spray
- - By M.W. Date 02-11-2002 22:31
Hey Guys.
If you are GMAW and you are useing ER70S-6 wire in short-circuit, can I use this same wire for globular or spray? And if so, is it just a matter of changing my amps, volts and gas mix? If the answer is yes, is there a general rule of how much you increase amps and volts to go to globular or spray.

Thanks.
M.W.
Parent - By boilermaker (**) Date 02-11-2002 23:10
M.W. Depending on wire size, you can ramp up the volts just enough where the wire will "fall" off the end for globular transfer mode, but for spray transfer, you can open the machine up with whatever wire speed you're running and go a quarter volt to one-half volt more for spray transfer...Depending on the WPS you're limited to amount of volts and wire speed.. If I knew the wire size, I could help more....I normally run .045 at about 33 volts on the inverter and 500 i/m on wire....but the voltage is wierd cause I never seem to get what's on the machine to show on the voltmeter on the suitcase....
Regards,
John
Parent - By Mike Brace (**) Date 02-12-2002 16:46
M.W. Getting into spray transfer is more a function of voltage and shielding gas. In order to get in to a true spray you will need a gas with at least 80% Argon. Many places use an 85% Argon, 15% CO2 mix for both short arc and spray transfer. Depending on wire feed speed you will approach spray transfer at about 23 volts and above. As to your comment about the power source meter having a higher voltage reading than the feeder in most cases this is do to weld cable voltage loss and the difference between open circuit and load voltage. If the weld cable is coiled up the loss is much more than if it is layed out straight. Hope this helps.

Mike Brace
Parent - - By TS Date 02-14-2002 22:50
M. W. You have a very good question on GMAW modes of transfer. First, the ER70S-6 that you are using has more silicon and manganese than ER70S-3. The ER70S-6 wire is primarily used on dirty, rusty, or heavy mill scaled steel. The silicon and manganese both are added for cleaning and extra strength. The weld puddle will seem a little more fluid than the ER70S-6 wire. I think the real question you have is how to set your machine for spray transfer. Also, it is best to stay out Globular transfer because you will lose penetration and cause excessive weld spatter.

Short circuit transfer is used on thin gage material and out of position welding. The wire actually touches the weld puddle up to 200 times per second. This gives good penetration and bead profile when things are set right. If you want a good place to start, set your voltage at 18 volts and wire speed at 240-300 IPM for .035 wire (175-240 IPM for .045). One clue to setting your welder is to listen to the arc. Listen for a crisp, smooth, crackling sound. This will be your best weld with very little spatter. The distance between the contact tip and welding arc should be ¼” to 3/8”. The best gas would be 75/25. Wire feed speed is how you set amperage on a CV machine and voltage sets the arc length. Too much voltage causes spatter. Voltage range for short circuit transfer is 16-21.

My advice is to stay out of Globular transfer. The voltage range for Globular is 21-25 depending on the welding gas. Mike Brace is right on his welding gas recommendation. In Globular transfer, the droplet size is twice the diameter of the wire, so if you are using .035 the droplet is around .070 diameter or more than 1/16” (.090 and 3-32” for .045 sire). Think of a large rock that is dropped into a bucket of water, it makes a big splash. Gravity is the only means of transfer. In Spray transfer, the droplet size is half the diameter of the weld wire or .013 for .035 wire, and .023 for .045 wire. The transfer is smooth and penetrating, while the droplet size will change with gas type and voltage (arc length). The voltage range for spray is 26-31 volts and should not be used at 33 volts like the Boilermaker states, unless using a larger diameter wire. Too much voltage will cause undercut, reduced penetration, and a concave bead profile. Set the wire feed speed between 350 and 500 IPM for .035 and 275 and 450 IPM, with the voltage at 26-28 volts (90/10 gas) and listen to the arc. If you hear a humming noise, the voltage is too high. If you hear a raspy crackle, the voltage is too low. If you have someone to help you, start with the voltage at 25 and turn it up while welding until you hear the humming, and then back it down until you hear a slight crackle. This should be the best setting that will reduce undercut and spatter (27-28 volts).

There are at least 40 to 50 variables in welding and an unlimited number of opinions. The response from Boilermaker sounds like an amateur that only know enough to get himself in trouble, or worst yet, someone else. The terms “ramp up the volts”, “fall off the end”, “open the machine up”, “voltage is weird” and “suitcase” have never been written on a Welding Procedure Specification. If he has read one, it is pretty clear that he is not following it. There is definitely a shortage of good welders today, and with the changing times, we all need to improve our knowledge. Keep asking questions because there are a lot of great people in our industry.

AWS Certified Welding Inspector/Certified Welding Educator (CWI/CWE)
Parent - - By RonG (****) Date 02-15-2002 13:59
Are you upset about something?

I belive the this is the "SHOP TALK" portion of the Forum. Why are you e so sharp with the JARGON in SHOP TALK I mean after all thats where the work is done, not in a class room or Lab.

SUIT CASE?? you must have never seen an INVERTER welding machine if you snap to that.

As for Shortage of good welders, Is that the fault of a fellow out there trying to make a living? The fact he is on here on this board speaks of trying to learn and share his knowledge that helps him to do his job.

Being the best welder in the whole wide world will get you what? A job?

Ask the company GM which he prefers Quality or Quanty watch him stutter and stammer, if he says Quality he feeding you a line, he couldnt care less if a man can spell WELDER as long as he can produce and will he spend his money on Training? Only if he is pushed in to a cornner and that is where you need to be pushing.

Parent - By DGXL (***) Date 02-15-2002 14:50
TS,
"ramp up the volts" vs "raspy crackle"

"fall off the end" vs "welding until you hear humming"

"voltage is weird" vs "slight crackle"

You post obviously has more merit - technically speaking...

Unlimited opinions + 1

Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 02-15-2002 14:57
TS, you've given some good information that should be very useful for most anyone who wants to use GMAW. You have obviously spent some time on the subject and your input is appreciated.

I have to agree with RonG though. Boilermaker was using common jargon used by welders who weld for a living. Most welders are highly skilled professionals who will endure difficult conditions to give you a weld that they can be proud of. Please keep in mind that most welders have spent considerable time in learning techniques that produce good work, but they may not have spent as many hours going over technical manuals (although some people will surprise you). Many welders haven't had the benefit of classroom training, only OJT. And that is because most employers don't want to spend any more on training than necessary, and many people can't afford formal training ontheir own.

Very often we all have to "paint a mental picture" for others who are having some problems because they might not know or remember the technical terms. If you've spent any time on a job site talking with welders, you've heard a lot of new "technical terms" to describe any situation. That doesn't mean that the WPS is not being followed.

It seemed to me that Boiler maker was trying to paint a mental picture. I don't think that makes him an amateur.

CHGuilford

Parent - By TS Date 02-15-2002 21:04
To RonG, DGXL, and DHGuilford: It seems we are all talking about the same thing with different points of view. I’ll give you mine and then enjoy to hear back. First, I am not upset about anything, just concerned that some misleading welding information is being presented. It is true the work is done in the shop or the field, but that is not the place to learn (unless you can afford it). Most places can not afford the mistakes and rework caused by OJT. I know that the union trades are competitive because of training and expert experience in that field of work. Higher quality vs. lower quality and higher wages vs. lower wagers. I believe that the Boilermaker trade requires four years of apprenticeship before they receive a journeyman’s card. This requires OJT and classroom. Non union shops don’t usually require previous experience or training, and must accept the economic burden. That is why there is a place for both groups in manufacturing.

Next, I think the term “suitcase” refers to the wire feeder. It could be a voltage-sensing feeder or hooked to the welder for voltage control at the welding machine. I have seen an INVERTER welding machine, and could explain the features, benefits, and theory of the INVERTOR, but I guess that would be called an article or book. I have sold them, used them, and think the welding arc is great.

I have been involved in many parts of the welding industry and have enjoyed them all, and I feel very strongly about training and improving the skills, quality, pay for welders. This can’t be done the old fashion way of only OJT because many bad habits of “just good enough welding” are still out there. There are a lot of extremely talented people welding today, but that’s what they like to do. Weld not teach. Welding Codes, Job Specifications, and Shop Standards are becoming more strict and that means quality must follow. Three things can prove Weld Quality Assurance and they are “past successful projects”, “engineering data”, and “performance qualification test”. I think all three have merit, but certain people making their own rules and that’s doesn’t help. I have trained and/or certified over a thousand welders and feel at least 99.9% are excellent, professional, and skilled workers that wanted to learn something new to improve themselves. I planned on and did learn something from each of them. I am a certified welder myself and have the skills to make quality welds and show others how to make quality welds to the code or specification needed.

Most companies don’t want to pay to train their employees to weld or any other part of the job. But most employers have higher quality standards today because their customers are requiring it. Training cost huge money and time, and many times those employees don’t stick around for the payback. What is worse, training people and losing them, or not training them and keeping them? Both have cost, whether hidden or not. I have never pushed companies into training, but when they finally see the need through economic loss or major quality issues, it becomes easy. Have you heard the phrase “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink”? Try putting salt in his oats. And by the way, most all the welders wanted more technical information because it gave them more control and ownership in their job. Bottom line, that means quality and production. It sounds like I have been too sharp on SHOP TALK or JARGON, but I have seen thousands of dollars, injury, and loss of life due to mis-interpreted welding language. Every shop has something different, and it might not be the same meaning. An example would be the term “air”. It could be “breathing air or oxygen”, depending on who is asking and who is listening. I know of people getting killed over this JARGON.

Technically speaking, you won’t ever see “sound” on a Welding Procedure Specification, but it is a good way to fine tune a welding arc within the qualified procedure parameters. Quality and production will never be on the same plane, but they should run parallel for results and profitability.

First time responder, long time reader. I will watch and learn. AWS-CWI/CWE
Parent - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 02-22-2002 03:16
i couldn't have said it better dude...i like mental pictures! i know if i was just getting into welding, i'd rather listen to some welder's jargon than hear a technical explanation...but presently, i have the technical knowledge about welding down pretty well, so i understood TS's response. i didn't think TS's response was all that bad, just out of place. i've noticed that happens a lot in here though. it's kinda like talking to kids...sometimes u have to step down to an amature welder's level in order to convey a point.
Parent - - By mbutler (*) Date 02-26-2002 20:58
The Lincoln Guide to MIG/MAG welding(supposedly condensed from AWS materials) claims that spray transfer is much less penetrating than globular, with an accompanying illustration that shows globular penetrating about twice as much as spray. It could be that the reference applies to the special case of running too high on the voltage, but they do not qualify the statement at all. Is this reflected in AWS materials? It certainly is misleading at best.
WRT to voltage levels, I have gauges on my machine which do reflect changes under load, but not the voltage loss through the cables. Is there any practical way of getting better info in real time?
Parent - - By DGXL (***) Date 02-26-2002 22:26
1. Spend the money for a good amp/volt meter.
2. Have the meter calibrated to a national standard (NIST).
3. Place the meter as close as practical to the arc (the contact block on the wire feeder) to ascertain arc voltage.
4. Amperage is genereally uniform throughout the circuit, place the meter tongs around the liner to obtain amperage.

Any bad connections, coiled leads, shorting, arcing, etc. should be noticable on your meter compared to that of the power supply meter(s). I can actually see (by the meter display) when the welder is long or short arcing, and I use this as a demonstration for my students when training. Other problems can also be present in the meter display as noted above.

This is how I monitor real time welding parameters.
Parent - - By mbutler (*) Date 03-08-2002 16:53
I hooked up a Fluke 87 multimeter and ESAB's voltage gauge was right on. As far as the current, I thought clamp on ammeters are only good on AC current?
Parent - By Niekie3 (***) Date 03-10-2002 17:23
Clamp meters are good for DC or AC. Your clamp meter must just have the facility to switch between the two.

Regarding the Volt meter, we must remember that the conductor to the job is relatively short in most cases where GMAW is concerned. This means that the voltage drop accross the conductor is relatively small. In addition, the closest practical point from which to measure the voltage with a standard volt meter is the connector block on the wire feeder. This means that any voltage drop between the work piece and wire feeder you will in any case not measure. In total, you can see that under most circumstances, you should get simmilar readings on the machine's voltmeter and the seperate voltmeter, unless one of the meters are out of calibration.

There are obviously exceptions, like when the wire feeder is far from the power source and the voltmeter is mounted on the power source.

Regards
Niekie Jooste
Parent - By boilermaker (**) Date 03-11-2002 01:22
TS..matter of factly I am NOT an amateur welder....If my description of my style of welding is scaring you, just think what an INEXPERIENCED WELDER would do. Sorry to everyone else on the posting board for going off the end on this one, but an individual who makes a comment about someone else being wrong is one thing, and letting them know the correct information is another...to call them inexperienced, unprofessional, or amateurs when they have went through an apprenticeship or vo tech school and has hours under the hood as well as classroom hours is just a slap in the face..I hope you've welded for a while pal because I've worked with CWI's who didn't have 1 second under a hood...just all the book knowledge....and all the book knowledge in the world may not get you anywhere if you don't have people or practical skills to apply the knowledge you have....You may be a very good CWI, however, just because I don't use AWS A3.0 standard terms and definitions doesn't mean I'm an amateur....Once again....sorry to everyone else....
Parent - - By JINX (*) Date 02-15-2002 21:36
M.W. now that the dust has settled, and I can take my hard hat off ,I would like to add to the excellent recommendations you received. There is one additional area which needs attention if you are planning on using the Spray Transfer mode on a regular basis. What is the amperage rating of your GMAW gun? It may be from the low end of 100 amps to the hight end of 600 amps air cooled. Using 75% Ar. - 25% co2 for shielding, the gun has a 100% duty cycle in the SC mode. However using a mixture of 80% Ar.- 20% CO2 reduces the duty cycle by 40-50% of the amperage rating during Spray Transfer. What this means in shop terms is melting contact tips, and the worst condition burning up the GMAW gun. There are also a variety of water cooled guns on the market as well. Visit www.weldreality.com and there is an excellent illustration of how the SC and Spray Arc should look.
Parent - By RonG (****) Date 02-19-2002 13:03
Well for all thats said and done this is still the "SHOP TALK" side not the TECHNICAL side and the person did ask "is there a general rule"

I am sure if the person wanted real Thechnical advise they would have posted on that side.

Parent - - By John T. (*) Date 02-20-2002 19:34
I dont want to start another tangent here, but while the neat demonstration of short circuit transfer at the above mentioned site appears to be correct, the demonstration of spray transfer appears more like globular, the droplets seem a little large to be a "spray transfer" again I dont want to ruffle any feathers, just an observation, and if its a bad one I'd love to hear back.
Parent - By mbutler (*) Date 03-05-2002 14:21
I believe the demonstration you're referring to has a caption that describes it as "transition zone" between globular and spray.
Parent - - By dee (***) Date 02-20-2002 02:58
A great deal of precise information can be found at www.weldreality.com, including proper selection of gas mix and filler metal for various applications. You will probably find 80Ar/20CO2 satisfactory for most applications jncluding short circuit and spray. Volts and amps (wire feed rate) depend not only on the gas or mix used but also on the diameter of the filler metal... all this is covered in depth at the site.

Good Luck
D
Parent - By boilermaker (**) Date 03-04-2002 23:24
CHGilford, thank you. It's not a lack of knowledge sometimes that welders have...they don't have the techincal aspect of the particular welding process that they're using...Yes saying "suitcase" to shop welders that have the inverter setups right there at their fingertips would make most think that I was off my rocker and didn't know what I'm talking about...Yes you are correct about the trade I'm in. Out of aproximatley 6000 hours that we are required to have I finished with about 8500 and most of that was time under the hood and in the test booth making money....that's why we all do what we do, to make money right?? If you really like your work it's even better. It comes down to making your weld look better day after day. And being better than the next guy. I'll be quiet now.
Parent - By stevem Date 03-08-2002 03:26
Wow,all these replies came from just MW asking a question, whether some think it is amatuer or not.When just coming up in this trade did noboby ever have to or want to ask questions to be better at their profession?I have and still do.I have been a certifed welder for over 25 years and I will listen and hopefully learn anything I can from anybody willing to talk to me with any questions I might have.
Hat's off to you MW for wanting to learn more about our trade but don't get discouraged by some who think they can't learn something new about welding because we can ALL never know too much, because there are new advances made daily that might can even be passed along to us on this site.

Hang in there,
stevem
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Short Cicuit,Globular, or Spray

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