Welder Certificate Validity Declaration extension

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 05-18-2009 15:52

Nalla

D1.1 does not have a requirement for recertification unless the welder has not operated in the process for a period exceeding 6 months (4.1.3)

A continuity mechanisim that can provide data which proves compliance is all that is required.

So if your process is showing continual performance in process on an annual basis... You can satisfy a code audit by making that continual performance log in 6 month intervals rather than annually. Perhaps your record keeping system already does this?

If the client wants recertification or any compliance beyond the scope of 4.1.3 they need to be ready to pay for it.

By eekpod

Date 05-18-2009 19:10

I agree, as long as you can prove that the welder has welded with the Process in the last 6 six months his certification is valid. This can be tracked via timesheets if necessary, but that is not how we do it. We actually fill out a form with the welders name and cert and position, although position is not a requirment for re-certification. But be aware he should not be welding in a position he is not certified for.

By James Corbin (**)

Date 05-20-2009 04:06

I have seen many a contract that states NO weldor test shall be older than one year and or must be done by an independent contractor and NO the "owner" will not have to pay for it, you will. Read the contract first before asking for payment. As for using a pick or blade try welding better. I have also failed many a weldor for NOT READING AND FOLLOWING THE WPS. As an example if the WPS does not support your weaves via travel speed limits you fail. The engineer may have a reason for controlling heat input.

By CWI555

Date 05-20-2009 04:44

More times than not, I've seen that. However, if the contractor properly bid the project, the owner would in fact be paying for it. Maybe not by name, but pay for it non the less.

By eekpod

Date 05-20-2009 10:08 Edited 05-20-2009 20:54

I have contracts all the time that say the same thing, the welder should be certified no longer than one year. I ignore it. I keep accurate records of continuity, and its easily tracable. I'd say 80% of the projects we do never even have anyone check the welders certs, never mind pick up that the date is over a year old.
I can prove the welders has been welding continously since his original date. If they don't like it, then they will pay to re-test the welder, but that has never happened.
Keep in mind that the people who put together the project spec's for the contracts pick what they want from a checklist of requirements. I personally don't think that they actually understand what they are asking for most of the time.

By JTMcC

Date 05-20-2009 13:48

Exactly. The owner pays for every cost in the job.

JTMcC.

By Nalla

Date 05-20-2009 21:24

Hi, eekpod

Can you pls share how you go about "keeping accurate records of continuity, and its easily tracable".
Back in our yard respective section maintaing records of welder job assignment record, Dailiy requisition Order Log Book, is it enough?
Maybe you can post typical format template
Thanks

By eekpod

Date 05-21-2009 12:58 Edited 05-22-2009 10:34

someone explain to me how to attache a document and I'll show you mine.

Alright, I removed any pertinent company information, but you can make your own easily enough in Excel or Word. I scanned an older copy before I realized that I didn't grab my 2008 version, but make sure you put whatever year of D1.1 that you have. I have been through numerous audits and third party inspectors and never had a problem. Good Luck Chris

Attachment: DOC052209.pdf (19k)

By jrw159

Date 05-21-2009 20:03

Look at the bottom of your post. There is the word "attach" click on it and it takes you to the download screen. Hit Browse, select the file you want to attach, hit upload. If you would like it to be seen without having to click on it, click embed.

jrw159 :-)

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 05-21-2009 21:13

Where is the word "attach"? In this particular screen - what I see after I click "reply" - the word "attach" does not appear anywhere.
The only options I have are "Post", "Preview", and a drop down box at the bottom with "Go" next to it . Nothing else except the 6 blue link near the top.

By jrw159

Date 05-21-2009 21:16

Chet,
You have to post first, then at the bottom of your post you will see attach. Sorry I was not as clear about that as I could have been. :-) After you post, at the bottom, you should have four options, reply, edit, delete and attach.

jrw159

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 05-22-2009 13:56

Yep - I see it now.
That's why I haven't attached anything before - too dense to figure it out.

By eekpod

Date 05-22-2009 18:20

It took me a few tries to get it to "stick" but then it worked.

By Nalla

Date 05-23-2009 09:59

Dear eekpod
Have you attached the your control sheet?

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 05-23-2009 17:06

Nalla,

Look back a few posts to his last post. He got it attached up the line a ways.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Nalla

Date 05-24-2009 08:16

Hi Eekpod
Do you re-qualify your welder for the same position and process he/she initially certified to for re-validate the certification?
If yes, how often?
Pls advise

By Ke1thk

Date 06-02-2009 12:41

Nalla,

You just have to keep welding with each certification within six months, not re-qualify.

I use a spreadsheet with the welders name, process, etc. I set it up to July and January. New welders enter the system and test out as required. Old welders are checked off in July and January. I use our "Shop Router" as proof that they have used their certifications within the time period.

My spreadsheet has passed ISO, Department of Defense, as well as all of my customer audits. Most/some codes are different and some customers are different (time between actual welding of certificed process). The way I understand D1.1 is that you only need to re-qualify if there's doubt; substance abuse, bogus certification to begin with, etc. At least that's my opinion.

Good Luck,

Keith

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 06-02-2009 12:51

Keith

I agree with you for the most part. However, there are many exceptions in contract documents and the FCM Bridge Components in D 1.5.

Joe Kane

By Nalla

Date 06-07-2009 01:31

Dear Friends
Yes, Welder cert valid indefinetely, provided as long as he/she weld in the process/position qualified for continually/consistently... My spread sheet indicate
1) Welders Particulars- initial date of certification. Process/Position qualified for
2) Project involved, Duration , process / posstion performed whick track back to respective sections Log Book
3) These weldder performance record verified and approved by respective section/department manager.
4) Based on the WPR, QA/QC Deapartment will re-validate preceding from the date of endorsement.
Am I doing it right? Appreciate any suggestion for further improvement,

By 803056

Date 06-15-2009 13:16 Edited 06-15-2009 23:58

"He who holds the gold makes the rules". In most cases the owner holds the gold or perhaps the golden check.

There are many reasons for the owner to insist on the welders being qualified by testing within a certain time frame. One of the reasons is that AWS only requires the welds to be visual examination, thus few welders are evaluated by volumetric means. Another reason is that many test reports are completed incorrectly. Why should an owner trust a proper qualification test was administered if the person administering the test can't even fill out a test report.

A common mistake I see where incorrect information is entered on a performance test report would be: "Progression: left to right or right to left". Now there's a CWI I would place my faith in!

The last and most important reason for requiring a recent test, or more importantly, a fillet break test specifically, is that the majority of structural welds are fillet welds. Most welders take the grooved plate test because that qualifies them for both grooves and fillet welds based on AWS D1.1 and most other welding standards. However, my experience indicates that most welders, even though they have passed the groove plate test, will fail the fillet break test due to incomplete fusion in the weld root. If they are successful in obtaining fusion to the root, they get overlap or undercut when they deposit a 5/16 inch fillet with GMAW or FCAW. As a matter of conversation, I reject more fillet welds for overlap than any other deficiency with undersized fillets running a close second.

As for the comment, "I ignore it". My response would be "Do you feel lucky punk? Well do ya?" :Q

It is funny the signature line is, "No one mourns the wicked." Is it truly descriptive of one's attitude, professionalism, honesty, ethics? I hope not.:)

I've been known to reject all the welds on various projects and send the trailers laden with the steel back to the fabricators for rework. I've also been present when the welders were qualified under a watchful eye because someone didn't pay attention to the contract.

Ignoring the owners requirements can be an expensive proposition. Hopefully it wasn't a CWI that made that silly comment. A CWI should know that his responsibilities include making sure the terms and conditions of the contract are fulfilled. If there are exceptions to be taken, they should be taken only with the full knowledge of the owner. Then again, if everyone did their job I would be out of work, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Best regards - Al

By eekpod

Date 06-15-2009 18:18

Al,
I would agree that most welders who passed a FCAW groove test may fail a fillet weld test for lack of fusion. It usually takes a practise weld or 1 test to get them to see the issue in the root of the fillet. I've had quite a time getting the welders to understand the difference, but they got it.

By 803056

Date 06-15-2009 23:56

I wish it was limited to just one process. I see the same results with most of the manual and semi-automatic welding processes.

There seems to be a disconnect between what the code allow and the real world, but that's nothing new. Just remember the mantra, "the code only specifies the minimim requirements, the code only specifies the minimum requirements", ummmmmmm!

Best regards - Al